Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, in a war which would involve China and any
> other country for that matter, there is no doubt
> that all known Chinese Nationals will be
> immediately incarcerated/interrogated and then
> deported for their "own protection."

Actually that would be done because they aren't Canadian. That's nothing to do with personal rights and freedoms, as a guest in another person's country it is the hosts country's choice whether you stay or not, if your home country goes to war with said country it would be pretty stupid to assume they are going to let Foreign Nationals they are currently at war with stay in their country... And it's VERY unlikely they would be interrogated, they'd be sent home.

> As for the
> overseas Chinese immigrants and overseas born
> Chinese, there may be a great number of people in
> any country who has friends that happen to be
> Asian, but that will not stop such a concentration
> camp policy primarily focused on people of Chinese
> decent. Moreover, once the body bags return
> during the war, there will be no love for Chinese
> in your or any other of those countries involved.

Please stop trying to put your hate and ignorance on others. Body Bags have been coming back from Afghanistan for years and while some retards are angry at all people who look Afghani most Canadians I meet and know are very intelligent and can understand that not all Afghani people are wanting to kill us. Just Nationalistic retards like you can't seem to understand that.

> Well, if a war happens between your Canada and my
> Motherland, I am extremely confident that many of
> your fellow friends in Canada will begin their
> transformation to become what you call,
> "Nationalist retards." Don't forget to call them
> as such when the bombs start dropping and then run
> for your life, when they come after you for saying
> such a thing.

I call all people as I see them. After going through two wars with Canada I can honestly say that Canada has way more non-retarded people than you seem to think. Just becuase you are blindly hateful to anyone the PRC tells you to be doesn't mean everyone is so bloody stupid.

> I will beg to differ with you on this issue, as I
> know most Chinese in this forum and in China would
> do also.

Of course they would because that's what Chinese schools and parents teach but it's true. China has been ruled by many different people who have called it many different names. China has been entirely conquered by the Mongolians. What we call China is actually called the People's Republic of China and it is very different than other countries of the past. Politically and culturally. It's like saying Greece has always been Greece, obviously over the years it's been conquered, split into smaller divided states and more, reunited, grown bigger and smaller. China is no different than many other countries around the world.

Uberche,

You confuse,
"Please stop trying to put your hate and ignorance on others. Body Bags have been coming back from Afghanistan for years and while some retards are angry at all people who look Afghani most Canadians I meet and know are very intelligent and can understand that not all Afghani people are wanting to kill us. Just Nationalistic retards like you can't seem to understand that."

You try to confuse everyone by trying to equate the current Afghan War with a potential conflict with China. Please do not compare apples to oranges. There is no doubt left in any educated person's mind that the ongoing Afghan War is a sham based on the false premise that Muslims want to kill Westerners because they are jealous of their material wealth and personal freedoms.

However, a war with China will not carry any such illusions, as it will be part of a global war for planetary domination. Hence, with that understanding, once the thousands of body bags return to Canada courtesy of we Chinese, people of Chinese decent who have the misfortune to be in Canada at that time will certainly pay the price with their lives. When I say this, I do not necessarily mean that it is the Canadian Government that the Chinese living in Canada should be worried about per se, rather it will be the common citizen majority or Canadian Nationalistic retards, as you would call them, that they should be concerned.


You accuse,
"Just becuase you are blindly hateful to anyone the PRC tells you to be doesn't mean everyone is so bloody stupid."

Please do not accuse China's Communist Party of teaching all Chinese to hate those people and nations it dislikes and insinuating that all China's citizens who follow their government must be "bloody stupid." In all my posts in this forum, I have always made my statements based on my own analysis of the facts. I have never posted anything or made any reference that I speak in the name of China or its Government.


You believe,
"China is no different than many other countries around the world."

I could not disagree with you more and I am sure my fellow Chinese Nationalist retards that number in the billions and many of your conditional Chinese friends will disagree with you as well.


OBC

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 06:32PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I try
> to inform my Chinese compatriots living in China
> the pitfalls of relocating outside of China that
> are typically not reported as often as they
> should. In fact, given the current level of
> China's economic growth, more Chinese should be
> made to understand that leaving their Motherland
> to live elsewhere may not result in the material
> rewards as it once did.
>
>
> OBC


OBC, you are mistaken to draw a biased, over-generalized view from the bad experiences of your small sample of family, relatives, and family friends, and then to give this as advice for Chinese not to go abroad because it supports your political and racial views. Your bias is neither fair nor accurate because, just as I can give countless negative stories, I can give countless positive stories as well, including many from Chinese whom I know personally as friends, colleagues, and acquaintances in the US. Also, I remember back in school when the class I was in was learning about emigration/immigration. When a person or family leaves, there are always push-pull factors that are involved. I am sure you know this. So the next time you have a family gathering, ask them to recount the non-economic push factors in China once again for you. Though some things may have improved, you may be surprised to find out that much of it still exists in China today, despite the country’s current level of economic growth.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 08:55PM by Guestpass0001.

Guestpass0001,

You assess,
"Your bias is neither fair nor accurate because, just as I can give countless negative stories, I can give countless positive stories as well, including many from Chinese whom I know personally as friends, colleagues, and acquaintances in the US."

Allow me to quantify the sources I draw upon to arrive to the views that I have and the suggestions I offer to other Chinese in China. Besides my close relatives and family friends, my sources include F-1/J-1 Chinese students, H-1B and green card recipients, as well as Chinese entrepreneurs.


You also state,
"So the next time you have a family gathering, ask them to recount the non-economic push factors in China once again for you. Though some things may have improved, you may be surprised to find out that much of it still exists in China today, despite the country’s current level of economic growth."

Aside from Chinese political dissidents, the most overwhelming factor that motivated immigrants and students to come to the West is for economic gain and/or the prospect of greater material wealth. This is based on a number of informal and formal studies that were academically generated in the institutions that I have visited. There are other push/pull factors that exert influence, but they are are not as significant.

Having stated the above, you should now realize as to why I always suggest to other Chinese living in China to reconsider their plans should they be deciding whether to come abroad or not. If their motivation is to visit or to gain educational and/or short-term work experience in the West, that is a perfectly fine plan that I would encourage. However, if they are thinking of permanently living in America in hopes to attain the American Dream, then I would advise them to reconsider, since that is no longer attainable for foreigners or Americans for that matter at this point.


OBC

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2009 10:55PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no doubt left in any educated
> person's mind that the ongoing Afghan War is a
> sham based on the false premise that Muslims want
> to kill Westerners because they are jealous of
> their material wealth and personal freedoms.
>
> However, a war with China will not carry any such
> illusions, as it will be part of a global war for
> planetary domination.

Yes it will. It will be based on the false premise that The two societies are opposed and cant live together even though they are basically the same nowdays.


> Hence, with that
> understanding, once the thousands of body bags
> return to Canada courtesy of we Chinese, people of
> Chinese decent who have the misfortune to be in
> Canada at that time will certainly pay the price
> with their lives. When I say this, I do not
> necessarily mean that it is the Canadian
> Government that the Chinese living in Canada
> should be worried about per se, rather it will be
> the common citizen majority or Canadian
> Nationalistic retards, as you would call them,
> that they should be concerned.

AKA: You don't know Jack Shit about what you are talking about. You're just making up bullshit about some mastabatory fantasy you have about some war that's going to happen, and in your wet dreams this is how it happened. We have different theories, neither is wrong. Grow the fuck up.

> Please do not accuse China's Communist Party of
> teaching all Chinese to hate those people and
> nations it dislikes and insinuating that all
> China's citizens who follow their government must
> be "bloody stupid."

Um... No. The Education in China teaches students that Americans hate them (many students have asked me why Americans hate China, when I ask why they think they do they always reply "Our teachers told us so") which encourages Chinese to hate Americans in return. It's a disugusting tactic of redirecting their energy to hating a made up boogey man much like many Western governments do with teh Middle Eastern people. Anyone who believes such obviously biased and idiotic teachings IS bloody stupid.

> In all my posts in this
> forum, I have always made my statements based on
> my own analysis of the facts. I have never posted
> anything or made any reference that I speak in the
> name of China or its Government.

I know you don't speak for China, you're AMERICAN. You really need to start letting that sink in... YOU are the oppressor.

> I could not disagree with you more and I am sure
> my fellow Chinese Nationalist retards that number
> in the billions and many of your conditional
> Chinese friends will disagree with you as well.

HOLY SHIT! You have BILLIONS of fellow Chinese Nationalistic Retards?!?! As in 2,000,000,000+?!? I thought there was only 1.3 Billion Chinese! And of thsoe only a fraction of them are Nationalistic Retards! So where do you hide all these people?!?

OH wait... this is like how you say China has 5000 years of history but really it only have 60... right. So you say you have billions which means a couple thousand. Makes sense.

So try showing some proof of what makes China so different already instead of just relying on numbers that you've pulled out of your ass and Have absolutely NO relation to fact or reality....

Uberche,

You dream,
"Yes it will. It will be based on the false premise that The two societies are opposed and cant live together even though they are basically the same nowdays."

The only thing that makes China and any major power in the West the same is their quest for power and/or domination. This premise has essentially formed the foundation of the history of human society. Furthermore, for someone who has lived in China, you of all people know the differences between Chinese and people from the West. These overgeneralized similarities that you speak of are actually your own fantasies that you keep in your mind.


You believe,
"AKA: You don't know Jack Shit about what you are talking about. You're just making up bullshit about some mastabatory fantasy you have about some war that's going to happen, and in your wet dreams this is how it happened. We have different theories, neither is wrong. Grow the fuck up."

The surrounding of China by America's military bases in Central, East, and South Asia as well as by its navies in the South China Sea is no illusion. Furthermore, don't try to use the argument that all countries do this kind of thing to one another, since China does no such antagonistic things on the borders of the US.


You argue,
"Um... No. The Education in China teaches students that Americans hate them (many students have asked me why Americans hate China, when I ask why they think they do they always reply "Our teachers told us so") which encourages Chinese to hate Americans in return. It's a disugusting tactic of redirecting their energy to hating a made up boogey man much like many Western governments do with teh Middle Eastern people. Anyone who believes such obviously biased and idiotic teachings IS bloody stupid."

First, the education system in China is overseen by the Chinese Government (i.e., the CCP); hence, I repeat, do not make any type of ridiculous accusations that the CCP is systematically creating hatred towards Western people. Second, your statement that students in China, who believe in all the teachings in its educational system that are sanctioned by the Chinese Government, are "bloody stupid" is insulting, as you have no right to judge we Chinese that way.


You amuse,
"HOLY SHIT! You have BILLIONS of fellow Chinese Nationalistic Retards?!?! As in 2,000,000,000+?!? I thought there was only 1.3 Billion Chinese! And of thsoe only a fraction of them are Nationalistic Retards! So where do you hide all these people?!? "

Remember, we Chinese people are all over the World. The reference to our numbers in my last post include not only those of us in the Motherland, but all overseas Chinese as well.


OBC

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2009 09:05PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only thing that makes China and any major
> power in the West the same is their quest for
> power and/or domination. This premise has
> essentially formed the foundation of the history
> of human society. Furthermore, for someone who
> has lived in China, you of all people know the
> differences between Chinese and people from the
> West. These overgeneralized similarities that you
> speak of are actually your own fantasies that you
> keep in your mind.

Me, as someone who actually lives and works with Chinese of all ages and financial backgrounds, can tell you that the differences are not nearly as big as you seem to think. People are mostly the same everywhere, the culture used to be very different but nowdays Chinese culture is not the same as it once was.

> The surrounding of China by America's military
> bases in Central, East, and South Asia as well as
> by its navies in the South China Sea is no
> illusion. Furthermore, don't try to use the
> argument that all countries do this kind of thing
> to one another, since China does no such
> antagonistic things on the borders of the US.

Um... China has been stealing US secrets for years... Another example of how you blind yourself to anything that doesn't mesh with your pre-existing ideas...

How China steals US Military Secrets

Chinese Spy Slept in US for 2 Decades

> First, the education system in China is overseen
> by the Chinese Government (i.e., the CCP); hence,
> I repeat, do not make any type of ridiculous
> accusations that the CCP is systematically
> creating hatred towards Western people.

Um... reread what you wrote... It makes no sense... unless you meant the education system is NOT overseen, in which case you're wrong. Either way this makes no sense.

Education Teaches Americans hate China
This creates anger towards Americans
Education is run by the government
Government is teaching to hate Americans.

> Second,
> your statement that students in China, who believe
> in all the teachings in its educational system
> that are sanctioned by the Chinese Government, are
> "bloody stupid" is insulting, as you have no right
> to judge we Chinese that way.

Actually I do have the right. Many of my friends were taught that if you have sex too much you'll die younger by their Physical Education Teacher. Four students at my current school were taught that if you run counter-clockwise on the running track it will weaken your heart. I could go on with the silliness that is/was taught as well as the insanity of things that aren't taught but I know they wont change your opinion anyway.

If you believe everything you are taught in school, not just in China but in any country, you're a bloody idiot. Schools are setup by governments to push propaganda (Columbus founded the USA, White people bought North America from the Indians, Americans hate Chinese - All equally stupid)

That's not to say everything they teach you is wrong, most is right, but they throw in their propaganda with the rest so people don't bother to question it, after all if the school teaches it, it must be right!

> Remember, we Chinese people are all over the
> World. The reference to our numbers in my last
> post include not only those of us in the
> Motherland, but all overseas Chinese as well.

You can claim it was refering to whatever you want but Billions is still a bullshit number you pulled out of your ass.

Uberche,

You claim,
"Me, as someone who actually lives and works with Chinese of all ages and financial backgrounds, can tell you that the differences are not nearly as big as you seem to think. People are mostly the same everywhere, the culture used to be very different but nowdays Chinese culture is not the same as it once was."

I will not disagree that Chinese culture has changed over time, but to say it is similar to Western or other cultures, that is definately false. Moroever, based on Kurt's description of how we Chinese act, not to say I agree entirely with what he says about we Chinese, you are still very wrong.


You diverge,
"Um... China has been stealing US secrets for years..."

That may be the case, but I was not talking about stealing national secrets. I clearly stated that it is only America, who physically surrounds and intimidates China and most other countries with its military might.


You confuse yourself,
"Um... reread what you wrote... It makes no sense... unless you meant the education system is NOT overseen, in which case you're wrong. Either way this makes no sense."

Stop playing stupid, as you know exactly what I wrote. The Chinese government, as with most governments, directs the curriculum that is taught to all of its students. Hence, for you to call students in China, "bloody idiots," for listening/learning from their teachers, you are indirectly accusing China's Government of instilling hate towards the West. Consequently, do not accuse China's Government of such ridiculous things.


Finally, you rant,
"You can claim it was refering to whatever you want but Billions is still a bullshit number you pulled out of your ass."

Interpret or confuse my final statement anyway you want, but billions of us Chinese can't be wrong...


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will not disagree that Chinese culture has
> changed over time, but to say it is similar to
> Western or other cultures, that is definately
> false. Moroever, based on Kurt's description of
> how we Chinese act, not to say I agree entirely
> with what he says about we Chinese, you are still
> very wrong.

Kurt's about as honest with himself as you are. As for how similar, depends where you live. In Cities like Beijing or Nanjing I would say very similar. If you go to the country side obviously not very.

> That may be the case, but I was not talking about
> stealing national secrets. I clearly stated that
> it is only America, who physically surrounds and
> intimidates China and most other countries with
> its military might.

I was pointing out that China also pisses off the USA. Both are guilty of it, it means nothing except to people like you.

> Stop playing stupid, as you know exactly what I
> wrote. The Chinese government, as with most
> governments, directs the curriculum that is taught
> to all of its students. Hence, for you to call
> students in China, "bloody idiots," for
> listening/learning from their teachers, you are
> indirectly accusing China's Government of
> instilling hate towards the West. Consequently,
> do not accuse China's Government of such
> ridiculous things.

Actually I had no idea what you were talking about. I still don't. You tell me I'm wrong that the government is instilling hate and next you agree the government creates the curriculum. I don't see where you think this is somehow rendering what I said as wrong...

> Finally, you rant,
> "You can claim it was refering to whatever you
> want but Billions is still a bullshit number you
> pulled out of your ass."
>
> Interpret or confuse my final statement anyway you
> want, but billions of us Chinese can't be wrong...

Billions of Chinese thought that eating animal penis made them better in bed. Billions of Chinese people think that Americans hate them. Billions of Chinese think that Mao saved them. Billions of Chinese don't think anything bad happened in Tiananmen Square in 1989. Should I go on?

Uberche,

You oversimplify,
"I was pointing out that China also pisses off the USA. Both are guilty of it, it means nothing except to people like you."

Once again, you try to fool everyone, including yourself, as to the real military situation between China and the GPE-led US/NATO military forces in Asia. Sure, both China and the US antagonize each other, however, it is the US that is playing a more provocative role in the current state of military affairs.

You try to soften the seriousness of the GPE-led US/NATO military presence around China, as they physically surround China by land, sea, and air. It is one thing to steal military secrets, but another thing when you bring military servicemen within striking distance of another country.

For example, you and Kurt can go on and on in this forum arguing Chinese-related issues till both your of faces turn blue. However, suppose Kurt decides to begin stalking you with a gun and even manages to pitch-up a tent and live right outside your apartment in China.

Did he not just raise the stakes in this dangerous game of yours? Would you not feel your life potentially threatened by his provocative stance? Or would you, like what you are trying to do in brainwashing all Chinese you meet about the seriousness of being surrounded by the GPE-led US/NATO military forces, to do nothing and self-delude yourself, as this is just a game that every nation plays against one another?

If so, in regards to this issue, the only game you speak of is in your delusional head.


You dodge,
"You tell me I'm wrong that the government is instilling hate and next you agree the government creates the curriculum. I don't see where you think this is somehow rendering what I said as wrong..."

The Chinese Government does influence the curriculum in China's educational system. However, it is you who is criticizing the Chinese Government for allegedly teaching hatred to Westerners to all of its students. Hence, please do not accuse the Chinese Government of such lies.


OBC

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2009 07:06PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, you try to fool everyone, including
> yourself, as to the real military situation
> between China and the GPE-led US/NATO military
> forces in Asia. Sure, both China and the US
> antagonize each other, however, it is the US that
> is playing a more provocative role in the current
> state of military affairs.

haha Says the Ultra-Nationalistic person who believes everything the government run schools tells him....

> You try to soften the seriousness of the GPE-led
> US/NATO military presence around China, as they
> physically surround China by land, sea, and air.
> It is one thing to steal military secrets, but
> another thing when you bring military servicemen
> within striking distance of another country.

You're right, putting your secret service people actually IN the other country to steal things that aren't theirs is a wonderful thing! and It's not really a recent thing that they moved those people there.

> For example, you and Kurt can go on and on in this
> forum arguing Chinese-related issues till both
> your of faces turn blue. However, suppose Kurt
> decides to begin stalking you with a gun and even
> manages to pitch-up a tent and live right outside
> your apartment in China.

Actually the correct analogy would be would you rather someone was outside your houes with a gun or someone inside your house stealing your stereo... My point here is that both are bad and very likely to cause violence. (although I think it's all for show, but we've had that discussion enough i think)

> Did he not just raise the stakes in this dangerous
> game of yours? Would you not feel physically
> threatened by his provocative stance? Or would
> you, like what you are trying to do in
> brainwashing all Chinese you meet about the
> seriousness of being surrounded by the GPE-led
> US/NATO military forces, to do nothing and
> self-delude yourself, as this is just a game that
> everyone plays?

Honestly, If I was broke into my neighbours house and got caught trying to steal his stereo repeatedly, I'd assume he'd probably be planning on shooting me.

> The Chinese Government does influence the
> curriculum in China's educational system.
> However, it is you who is criticizing the Chinese
> Government for allegedly teaching hatred to
> Westerners to all of its students. Hence, please
> do not accuse the Chinese Government of such
> lies.

I already told you why they aren't lies. You should go re-read this line of questioning.

Uberche,

Yoy correctly surmise,
"Honestly, If I was broke into my neighbours house and got caught trying to steal his stereo repeatedly, I'd assume he'd probably be planning on shooting me."

My point exactly.

As I always state in my postings in this forum, China and all Chinese everywhere need to be aware and prepare for the potential conflict that the GPE-led West will bring upon China in their quest for global domination. The fact that the GPE-led US/NATO forces has not opened hostilities with China, does not mean they will not.

Furthermore, it would be foolish for all Chinese to begin adopting a GPE-inspired One-World mentality, since that is exactly what they hope will fool we Chinese in not knowing that our politcal, economic, and military subjugation is what the West is truly after.


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I always state in my postings in this forum,
> China and all Chinese everywhere need to be aware
> and prepare for the potential conflict that the
> GPE-led West will bring upon China in their quest
> for global domination. The fact that the GPE-led
> US/NATO forces has not opened hostilities with
> China, does not mean they will not.

Whatever, I'm not bothering with this discussion again. I say they wont because they need each other, You say they will because you're a retarded racist who hates the West even though it's your home and you live there. I say Nuh Uh! You say Yuh Huh! repeat for a couple pages and we're done. Good job us...

> Furthermore, it would be foolish for all Chinese
> to begin adopting a GPE-inspired One-World
> mentality, since that is exactly what they hope
> will fool we Chinese in not knowing that our
> politcal, economic, and military subjugation is
> what the West is truly after.

Blah Blah Blah. "Everyone fear teh West! QUICKLY RUN AWAY! Of course I live in the West, because I need to see how evil it is so no one else has to. teeheeeheee No really I"m not a hypocritical retard! Just because I use all the services of the GPE, Spend their money, Finance their institutions and spend my working hours working to make them stronger doesn't mean I support them! I can totally live here and give them money but because I go on the internet and tell people i hate them taht means I don't support them! Giving them money and my life doesn't mean anything!"

Useless people...

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Besides my close relatives and family friends, my
> sources include F-1/J-1 Chinese students, H-1B and
> green card recipients, as well as Chinese
> entrepreneurs.
>
> Aside from Chinese political dissidents, the most
> overwhelming factor that motivated immigrants and
> students to come to the West is for economic gain
> and/or the prospect of greater material wealth.
> This is based on a number of informal and formal
> studies that were academically generated in the
> institutions that I have visited. There are other
> push/pull factors that exert influence, but they
> are are not as significant.


OBC, first, I asked for non-economic push factors and you state the obvious economic pull factor! But I will follow your line of thought anyway. What you didn’t connect, or won’t admit, is the flip-side of that, the reasons for the economic push, e.g., a lack of better paying jobs in general, a lack of better paying jobs for the educated and highly educated men and women, a lack of better opportunities for women in general, to be able to buy better quality goods and genuine foreign goods cheaply compared to in China, to be able to buy better quality large big-ticket things, etc. So I ask again, what are the non-economic push factors which you say are not significant? It is easy for me to think of a list of things, but can you be non-partial and speak of them? Second, why do you not include Chinese political dissidents whose reasons for leaving are a non-economic push? They are factual and real, but here you’ve ignored them because they do not support your arguments or views. Third, economic/financial gain is the goal of any (Chinese) entrepreneur, so their answer is expected for coming to the US. Fourth, Chinese students going abroad today are products of the One-Child policy and better economic times, and their experiences are much different than, I presume, your parents, kin, and family friends when they came over. Also, they are better prepared with a proficiency of the English language which you can not even compare with your family’s and relatives’ from what you’ve told me. Since language is not so much a barrier, this makes it easier for them to adapt, establish personal relationships, and settle down in the US, unlike your family, kin and family’s friends who did not adapt, did not establish personal relationships outside their like-kind, but did settle down in the US anyway, and in the case of your family, bore and raised you with an American education (again, where is the unconditional love and loyalty to the Motherland?). Furthermore, Chinese students going abroad today are typical of students and young people alike from all over the world who desire what they dream of having, and on living, and have expectations of realizing their self without their homeland’s social, religious, and racial restrictions/constraints. Their apparent answer is to be expected, but your bias does not permit you to see deeper in to their answer, at least it seems you will never admit to them anyway.


> However, if they are thinking of
> permanently living in America in hopes to attain
> the American Dream, then I would advise them to
> reconsider, since that is no longer attainable for
> foreigners or Americans for that matter at this
> point.
>
>
> OBC


OBC, like the GPE which you frequently refer to but still are unable to define for us (so I am always skeptical, as should others, of what you are actually talking about), I understand the American Dream to have two meanings, one general and one specific. First, the general meaning, by historian James Adams who coined the term in 1931. He wrote:

“The American Dream…is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position….
“The American Dream, that has lured tens of millions of all nations to our shores in the past century has not been a dream of material plenty, though that has doubtlessly counted heavily. It has been a dream of being able to grow to the fullest development as a man and woman, unhampered by the barriers which had slowly been erected in the older civilizations, unrepressed by social orders which had developed for the benefit of classes rather than for the simple human being of any and every class.”

I do not wish to debate Adams’ words because it has already been argued about over the decades ad nauseam. I bring it up though because, while he still acknowledges economic/material push-pull factors, his true message emphasizes the non-economic push-pull factors.

Now, the specific meaning of the American Dream of home ownership which I believe you are referring to and which I understand evolved from the growing middle class of the 1950s. You say, “it is no longer attainable,” but let’s keep with reality and facts. This came out just three days ago (Oct 23) so the facts are fresh:

“Existing-home sales bounced back strongly in September with first-time buyers driving much of the activity, marking five gains in the past six months, according to the National Association of Realtors®.
Existing-home sales – including single-family, townhomes, condominiums and co-ops – jumped 9.4 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.57 million units in September from a level of 5.09 million in August, and are 9.2 percent higher than the 5.10 million-unit pace in September 2008. Sales activity is at the highest level in over two years, since it hit 5.73 million in July 2007.” [www.realtor.org]

Keep in mind these are *first-time* buyers for millions of people, couples, and families. So for them, the possibility of the American Dream is in their hands.

Since you present yourself to have an affinity, thus insight and understanding of the Chinese people, what is the Chinese Dream?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2009 11:11PM by Guestpass0001.

Guesspass0001,

There may be non-economic related pull factors that lead any foreigner to the West, but other than political dissidents, these non-economic factors are very marginal at best. Furthermore, if foreigner were to say they came to the US to share in freedom and democracy, they would be laughed at by many Americans.

You say,
"this makes it easier for them to adapt, establish personal relationships, and settle down in the US, unlike your family, kin and family’s friends who did not adapt, did not establish personal relationships outside their like-kind, but did settle down in the US anyway, and in the case of your family, bore and raised you with an American education (again, where is the unconditional love and loyalty to the Motherland?)."

I have never said that it is wrong to try for a better life, even if that means leaving your homeland. My contention was for those Chinese who are seeking a better life and may be contemplating achieving this abroad, to reconsider this decision due the improving economic situation in China and an ever worsening economic situation everywhere else.


You present,
"This came out just three days ago (Oct 23) so the facts are fresh: 'Existing-home sales bounced back strongly in September with first-time buyers driving much of the activity, marking five gains in the past six months, according to the National Association of Realtors®.
Existing-home sales – including single-family, townhomes, condominiums and co-ops – jumped 9.4 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.57 million units in September from a level of 5.09 million in August, and are 9.2 percent higher than the 5.10 million-unit pace in September 2008. Sales activity is at the highest level in over two years, since it hit 5.73 million in July 2007.' [www.realtor.org]"

First of all, given the rate of foreclosures and unemployment currently in the US, I am extremely doubtful of the validity of the report you quoted. Moreover, as I see the source for your report comes from an organization composed of realtors, it is obvious that they would have a compelling interest to say positive things in regards to the current status of the real estate market. Hence, why would anyone trust a report published by individuals, who were responsible for creating the last real estate bubble that catastrophically burst in the last year.


You ask,
"Since you present yourself to have an affinity, thus insight and understanding of the Chinese people, what is the Chinese Dream?"

There is no official Chinese dream, but possess what I would call an understanding by all Chinese that one tries to maximizes his or her well-being given their social class and educational level moderated also by the amount of wealth and political power they have.


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There may be non-economic related pull factors
> that lead any foreigner to the West, but other
> than political dissidents, these non-economic
> factors are very marginal at best. Furthermore,
> if foreigner were to say they came to the US to
> share in freedom and democracy, they would be
> laughed at by many Americans.


OBC, honestly, I was thinking of the over-crowding, the environmental pollution, safety, health and hygiene issues, getting away from weird people, etc.


> First of all, given the rate of foreclosures and
> unemployment currently in the US, I am extremely
> doubtful of the validity of the report you quoted.


You may doubt the numbers, but for you to say that home ownership "is no longer attainable" is grossly inaccurate, meaningless, and misleading.


> There is no official Chinese dream
>
>
> OBC

Guesspass0001,

"OBC, honestly, I was thinking of the over-crowding, the environmental pollution, safety, health and hygiene issues, getting away from weird people, etc."

Environmental factors would definately be something I would consider in moving to another place. However, an overwhelming number of Chinese I met overseas, though admiring the enviromental policies of the West, never alluded that it was a critical factor in living outside of China.


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Environmental factors would definately be
> something I would consider in moving to another
> place. However, an overwhelming number of Chinese
> I met overseas, though admiring the enviromental
> policies of the West, never alluded that it was a
> critical factor in living outside of China.

Students in China continually tell me how much they want to live in Canada because it's very clean, environmentally friendly and has very few people. That's probably the most common reasons I hear for it.

Uberche,

You mention,
"Students in China continually tell me how much they want to live in Canada because it's very clean, environmentally friendly and has very few people. That's probably the most common reasons I hear for it."

This could be the case, but for those Chinese you mentioned above, why did they not choose the US, who is similar in many of those aspects.

Could it really be due to the fact that Visa restrictions are not as numerous in Canada as they are for Chinese wanting to travel to the US?


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uberche,
>
> You mention,
> "Students in China continually tell me how much
> they want to live in Canada because it's very
> clean, environmentally friendly and has very few
> people. That's probably the most common reasons I
> hear for it."
>
> This could be the case, but for those Chinese you
> mentioned above, why did they not choose the US,
> who is similar in many of those aspects.

Because Canada's cleaner, protects it's environment better and has less people. As I just said....

Another non-economic push-pull factor is the freedom to have more than just one child in the family.

OBC, if you are not the only child in your family, maybe you could appreciate this.

Guesspass0001,

I come from a fairly large family and love the idea of having big families. However, I do believe that countries should adopt policies that are for the better of that society.

In the late 20th century, China adopted a one-child policy. Given its economic development level at that time, such a policy was valid. However, that policy may change in the 21st century, as China becomes more developed.


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the late 20th century, China adopted a
> one-child policy. Given its economic development
> level at that time, such a policy was valid.
> However, that policy may change in the 21st
> century, as China becomes more developed.
>
>
> OBC


The One-Child Policy is an urban policy affecting almost 40% of population. Since its adoption, while slowing the country's population rate and keeping numbers down, the overall population of China has still risen! I seriously don't believe the policy will change in the 21st Century, that's just unrealistic, especially when the global population is still growing. And while China's overall economy and urban families' economic situation have generally improved, the environment is suffering terribly. Here are some photos:

Lu Guang photos

Hopefully more countries follow China's lead in encouraging less people...

Guesspass0001,

You point out,
"And while China's overall economy and urban families' economic situation have generally improved, the environment is suffering terribly."

A nation's environmental pollution growth normally follows its population growth, unless it dumps its garbage somewhere else. Pollution growth is also influenced by its economic stage of development. Hence, there should be no surprise of the pollution levels China currently has and its going to have for the next 50 years.


You also state,
"I seriously don't believe the policy will change in the 21st Century, that's just unrealistic, especially when the global population is still growing."

Although I come from a large family, I still believe China should continue its policies of population control. Moreoever, I would like to offer to you a new paradigm in establishing such policies.

In essence, each nation should reevaluate the amount of land resources it has, project its job growth for the next 20 years or so, and then establish newborn child policies that ensures that population growth does not exceed job growth for the same amount of time. Also, establishing mandatory retirement with generous beenfits would help also in ensuring the success of this approach.


OBC

I heard you can always go to Hong Kong to give birth when you fancy having more than one baby anyway....

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> population control. Moreoever, I would like to
> offer to you a new paradigm in establishing such
> policies.
>
> In essence, each nation should reevaluate the
> amount of land resources it has, project its job
> growth for the next 20 years or so, and then
> establish newborn child policies that ensures that
> population growth does not exceed job growth for
> the same amount of time. Also, establishing
> mandatory retirement with generous beenfits would
> help also in ensuring the success of this
> approach.
>
>
> OBC


OBC, your paradigm would never fly. It is impossible to forecast 5 - 10 - 20 year job growth with how much land resources a country has. Also, what about the import of raw and finished materials and how that influences job growth. Job growth is also a function of a country's exports, productivity and technological advances, government spending, domestic and global consumption, etc. To tell couples how many children they are allowed to have on nothing more than a guess that's based on fabricated numbers is just crazy power control over the people. Keep on dreaming....