Uberche wrote :
-----------------------------------
>Wrong Choupijiang, China has been broken, split up, reconquered and changed
>many times, just like all the ancient civilizations. Just having a country
>called China doesn't mean it's the same China. Current China has 60 years of
>history, the region where China is currently situated has 5000+ years of
>history, but so do all regions.

Sorry if I sounded rude in my previous post, I was in a bad mood or something. Nonetheless, I am afraid I have to correct you again. I am not trying to prove anything here, just want to set the facts right(is this the right way of saying it ? PLs correct me.) .

China had had succesive dynasties, before People's Republic of China, a.k.a post-civil war China. After the Warring States Period, during the Dynastic rule, the only instances of "broken, split up, reconquered" were during 1271 in which China fell to Mongol rule under Kublai Khan, forming the Yuan dynasty. He adopted Sino (chinese) culture. He built his administration building using chinese building codes, he proclaimed himself Emperor of China, he ruled using Chinese bureacracy, adopted Chinese customs, basically he was 'Sinicized' (literally means 'chinese-fied'). At that time, Chinese culture prevailed, majority were still Han, the only thing that changed was the leader. Yuan Dynasty is a continuation of imperial/dynastic rule, it is preceded by Song Dynasty and followed by Ming Dynasty. So China was still intact.

Then, a peasant(chinese) overthrew the Yuan Dynasty, and the Chinese regained control of China and established Ming Dynasty. Next, after the last Ming Emperor comitted suicide, China fell to the Manchus who established the Qing Dynasty, the last ruling dynasty of China. Needless to say, they were 'Sinicized' too. By the late 19th century, many parts of China was invaded by Western forces, but China was not conquered, meanwhile China was also starting to modernize.

Subsequently, Qing dynasty was overthrown yet again by its own people(chinese) and the Republic of China was formed under the rule of the Nationalist Party led by Sun Yat Sen. Then in 1949, the Communist Party of China gained control of Mainland China till present day.

Yes, China was broken, split up, reconquered, but as a whole it is still there. It only transitioned from imperial rule to the now modernised rule. The majority Hans have always been here(up till modern times), Chinese culture has always been here(up till modern times), and China has always been situated in the Mainland China region(up till modern times).

Once, I watched a documentary on History Channel about ancient civilizations, it was said that "......while the Egyptians,the Romans, the Babylonians....etc. have gone, the Chinese are still here in modern times......". So are you saying that History Channel is disseminating false information to the public ?

On a different note, I would like to apologise again for the statement I made below in my previous post. I had no intention of proving anything, I guess my emotions got the better of me, and I was going through a tough time at that time.

> BTW, the whites have the Chinese to
> thank for Renaissance, just read the peer-reviewed
> book entitled "1434" by Gavin Menzies.

Choupijiang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Once, I watched a documentary on History Channel
> about ancient civilizations, it was said that
> "......while the Egyptians,the Romans, the
> Babylonians....etc. have gone, the Chinese are
> still here in modern times......". So are you
> saying that History Channel is disseminating false
> information to the public ?

Those empires fell but those places and the people still exist. Egypt and egytians still exist today. Rome is still in Italy. Persians are still here but except they are called Iranians. The Greeks are still here and so is Greece. So just because the Hans and China are still here doesn't mean China kept its Ancient civilization. China ain't run by dynasties and now run by a government. Also why did the PRC say China is 60 years old? why not 5000 years old? Looks like the government themselves also don't see it as a continuation.

China has kept a lot of ancient practiced arts that are ancient like the Shaolin Temple. They don't evolve into modern times using modern weapons. The Shaolin monks live in their temples like ancient times. Now this is like an ancient civilization still living old times. China also has a lot of ancient villages. But Beijing ain't no ancient civilization even if they have the Forbidden Palace. Plenty of Hans in Beijing too and for sure Beijing still dont feel ancient.

As for History Channel, they just express out its findings. It doesn't mean you use it like it cold hard facts that are 100% true. Doesn't mean they are lying with false information but when a new finding comes the conclusion of what happen at that event can change drastically. Also the History channel can be bias at times just to prove a point more strongly. Its hard to describe what is ancient also considering things keep evolving. When it evolves do you still consider it still ancient? The concept of modern is also very subjective too. Ancient vs Modern is not an easy thing to differentiate sometimes. Is it correct to just point at Han people and say Ancient people?

Whether China is ancient is not an easy thing to answer and many perspectives won't make it easy to conclude either.

Moroes wrote :
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Those empires fell but those places and the people still exist. Egypt and
>egytians still exist today. Rome is still in Italy. Persians are still here
>but except they are called Iranians. The Greeks are still here and so is
>Greece. So just because the Hans and China are still here doesn't mean China
>kept its Ancient civilization. China ain't run by dynasties and now run by a
>government. Also why did the PRC say China is 60 years old? why not 5000
>years old? Looks like the government themselves also don't see it as a
>continuation.

>China has kept a lot of ancient practiced arts that are ancient like the
>Shaolin Temple. They don't evolve into modern times using modern weapons.
>The Shaolin monks live in their temples like ancient times. Now this is like
>an ancient civilization still living old times. China also has a lot of
>ancient villages. But Beijing ain't no ancient civilization even if they
>have the Forbidden Palace. Plenty of Hans in Beijing too and for sure
>Beijing still dont feel ancient.

>As for History Channel, they just express out its findings. It doesn't mean
>you use it like it cold hard facts that are 100% true. Doesn't mean they
>are lying with false information but when a new finding comes the
>conclusion of what happen at that event can change drastically. Also the
>History channel can be bias at times just to prove a point more strongly.
>Its hard to describe what is ancient also considering things keep evolving.
>When it evolves do you still consider it still ancient? The concept of
>modern is also very subjective too. Ancient vs Modern is not an easy thing
>to differentiate sometimes. Is it correct to just point at Han people and
>say Ancient people?

>Whether China is ancient is not an easy thing to answer and many
>perspectives won't make it easy to conclude either.

I totally agree with you. However, there a few things I would like to discuss with you.

PRC can't say China is 5000 years old, simply because PRC was not formed 5000 yrs ago, it was formed 60 yrs ago. There is a clear distinction between dynastic rule and the modern concept of government. Dynastic rule refers to "ancient" China, and when you say "modern China" you would be refering to Republic of China(ROC) which was succeeded by PRC.
Yes, China is modernised, but this a necessity, everything has to change with time. It is akin to why we no longer use large wooden ships with sails to move across oceans, we now use modern ships and boats because we have to change with times. It just makes no sense to use the old large wooden ships with sails anymore, save for recreational purposes. That's why the Nationalist Party had to overthrow the Qing government to establish ROC, the first truly "modern" China, to change with times. So you can probably say "ancient" China is gone by then, but it is not the fall of a civilization, like you would say for Egyptians, Persians and Romans Empire. Civilizations fall due to reasons ranging from natural disasters, over-exploitation of natural resources, to diseases etc. As for the said civilizations, they were invaded and conquered by foreign forces, as a whole their civilization has collapsed. It's just that the China "civilization" underwent a transition from dynastic rule to the modern concept of government to change with time.
In historical context, civilization is defined as "a society, its culture and its way of life during a particular period of time or in a particular part of the world".
If one were to adhere to this definition strictly, it can be said "ancient" China is gone. However, I suppose you can also say China passed the criteria in this definition which are "a society, its culture and its way of life in a particular part of the world " (I omitted "during a particular period of time" because it says "or") Yes, the only problem is "its way of life" criterion, in which Chinese now no longer live like "ancient Chinese", but like I said its because they have to change with times. Let me put it in another way, China modernising(from Qing dynasty to ROC to PRC to now) is akin to Roman military's transition from unsalaried citizen militia to a later professional and salaried force, as initially Rome's military consisted of an annual citizen levy performing military service as part of their duty to the state, as the extent of the territories of Rome expanded, and the size of the city's forces increased, the soldiery of ancient Rome became increasingly professional and salaried.
The reason I keep comparing is to show that everything has to change with time, and societies or civilizations do change. So, again, going by the definition of civilization: "a society, its culture and its way of life in a particular part of the world " The chinese civilization did not fall, it's more like adapting.
Still, in the modern world the whole world is considered as one whole civilization because everyone lives more or less the same way, ie the modern culture.

In conclusion, I admit that my statement of "China is the only ancient civilization that survived till modern times intact" is not completely true. However, based on my arguments above I suppose it's just a matter of perspective.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2010 02:05AM by Choupijiang.

"I am not trying to prove anything here, just want to set the facts right(is this the right way of saying it ? PLs correct me.) . "

I think it's more commonly said as set the facts straight but that depends where you're from.

"the only instances of "broken, split up, reconquered" were during 1271 in which China fell to Mongol rule under Kublai Khan, forming the Yuan dynasty."

Look at ancient maps of China, it is broken,split up, reconquered a number of times.

"At that time, Chinese culture prevailed, majority were still Han, the only thing that changed was the leader. Yuan Dynasty is a continuation of imperial/dynastic rule, it is preceded by Song Dynasty and followed by Ming Dynasty. So China was still intact. "

Egypt followed Egypt so it's still intact. Iran followed Persia so it's still intact. It's easy to make this argument for all the ancient civilizations. China calls them dynasties pretending it wasn't any real change but the cultures changed, the way of life changed, many things changed between the dynasties.

"The majority Hans have always been here(up till modern times), Chinese culture has always been here(up till modern times), and China has always been situated in the Mainland China region(up till modern times). "

The majority Egyptians have always been there, Egyptian culture has always been there and Egypt has always been situated in the Egyptian region. It's easy to make this argument for all the ancient civilizations. I really don't get why Chinese seem so insistent that there's something magically different about china.

""......while the Egyptians,the Romans, the Babylonians....etc. have gone, the Chinese are still here in modern times......". So are you saying that History Channel is disseminating false information to the public ? "

I'm saying they are wrong. The Egyptians would be very surprised to hear they are gone I think.

The simple fact is there is nothing in China today that links the Chinese people of today with their ancestors of 5000 years ago except their own internal feelings. The culture has changed completely (most recently with the cultural revolution and the cult of Maoism) their country has been broken and split and reconquered numerous times (check the maps if you don't believe me), China is the same as all the rest of the ancient civilizations except it seems to have the incessant need to try and pretend to be different, like some teenager screaming "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME!!!" at everyone around them.

Uberche wrote :
----------------------------------------------------------
>think it's more commonly said as set the facts straight but that depends
>where you're from.

Thank you.

>"the only instances of "broken, split up, reconquered" were during 1271 in which China fell to Mongol rule under Kublai Khan, forming the Yuan dynasty
>Look at ancient maps of China, it is broken,split up, reconquered a number of times.

Oh, so ancient China ended in the Yuan Dynasty, very funny. Get your facts right.

>I'm saying they are wrong. The Egyptians would be very surprised to hear
>they are gone I think.

They meant the civilization. Of course the people are still here, even Mayans are still here.

>The simple fact is there is nothing in China today that links the Chinese
>people of today with their ancestors of 5000 years ago except their own
>internal feelings. The culture has changed completely (most recently with
>the cultural revolution and the cult of Maoism) their country has been
>broken and split and reconquered numerous times (check the maps if you
>don't believe me), China is the same as all the rest of the ancient
>civilizations except it seems to have the incessant need to try and pretend
>to be different, like some teenager screaming "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME!!!"
>at everyone around them

Regarding this, obviously you have your own fancy definition of what civilization is, and please read Moroes' post and compare to what you have said. Then, you will know where you went wrong.

Uberche wrote :
----------------------------
>The majority Egyptians have always been there, Egyptian culture has always
>been there and Egypt has always been situated in the Egyptian region. It's
>easy to make this argument for all the ancient civilizations. I really
>don't get why Chinese seem so insistent that there's something magically
>different about china.

Egypt collapsed when they were conquered by the Romans.
Alexandria became the scene of great anti-pagan riots with public and private religious imagery destroyed. As a consequence, Egypt's pagan culture was continually in decline. While the native population continued to speak their language, the ability to read hieroglyphic writing slowly disappeared as the role of the Egyptian temple priests and priestesses diminished. The temples themselves were sometimes converted to churches or abandoned to the desert.

Let's see China was conquered by who ? Yuan Dynasty- Kublai Khan, sinicized Mongolian, MIng Dynasty- Zhu Yuan Zhang(Han chinese) followed by successive chinese emperors, Qing Dynasty- Manchus but sinicized, after that Sun Yat Sen(Chinese), followed by MaoZeDong (Chinese)

Uberche - And have you ever tried to reason with that type of teenager or tell them that you DO understand? What was the result? Sometimes the only thing you can do is let them talk and act out until they either grow up and learn the truth on their own or watch them keep it up until everyone learns to ignore them. Go ahead and try it once or twice, but don't lose any sleep over not being able to help someone see the error of their ways.

Choupijiang Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >"the only instances of "broken, split up,
> reconquered" were during 1271 in which China fell
> to Mongol rule under Kublai Khan, forming the Yuan
> dynasty
> >Look at ancient maps of China, it is broken,split
> up, reconquered a number of times.
>
> Oh, so ancient China ended in the Yuan Dynasty,
> very funny. Get your facts right.

No, I'm not saying China ended exactly, I'm saying it depends entirely on what you mean by "ended". And that the same arguments as to why China never truly ended can be used to say most of the ancient civilizations never truly ended.

> >I'm saying they are wrong. The Egyptians would be
> very surprised to hear
> >they are gone I think.
>
> They meant the civilization. Of course the people
> are still here, even Mayans are still here.

The Egyptian civilization is still the in the same way China is, it's changed obviously but so is China.

> >The simple fact is there is nothing in China
> today that links the Chinese
> >people of today with their ancestors of 5000
> years ago except their own
> >internal feelings. The culture has changed
> completely (most recently with
> >the cultural revolution and the cult of Maoism)
> their country has been
> >broken and split and reconquered numerous times
> (check the maps if you
> >don't believe me), China is the same as all the
> rest of the ancient
> >civilizations except it seems to have the
> incessant need to try and pretend
> >to be different, like some teenager screaming
> "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME!!!"
> >at everyone around them
>
> Regarding this, obviously you have your own fancy
> definition of what civilization is, and please
> read Moroes' post and compare to what you have
> said. Then, you will know where you went wrong.

Sorry, you're right. Nothing linking is too exaggerated. But it still stands that China today is very different than ancient China, just like in Egypt they still have some of the same cultural parts but overall the modern society and modern culture is very different than the ancient society and ancient culture.

> Let's see China was conquered by who ? Yuan
> Dynasty- Kublai Khan, sinicized Mongolian, MIng
> Dynasty- Zhu Yuan Zhang(Han chinese) followed by
> successive chinese emperors, Qing Dynasty- Manchus
> but sinicized, after that Sun Yat Sen(Chinese),
> followed by MaoZeDong (Chinese)

Kublai Khan was Mongolian. Later rulers of the Yuan Dynasty took more and more Chinese culture but Kublai Khan was Mongolian and pretending otherwise is dishonest. Yes Kublai Khan used many Chinese political and sociological systems but that doesn't mean he's Chinese, it means he's smart enough to know two things 1)China was more advanced than Mongolia in many ways so they could learn from it 2) He wanted long term power, if you want people to be happy you don't march in and try to change the very fabric of the people's society and culture (the USA should have learned this before invading Iraq).

I guess the simplest way to ask this question is "What makes people say China stayed around and not the other Ancient civilizations which are obviously still here?"

China's size and shape has changed, it's culture has greatly changed and it was conquered by outside forces.

Xietingfeng Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uberche - And have you ever tried to reason with
> that type of teenager or tell them that you DO
> understand? What was the result? Sometimes the
> only thing you can do is let them talk and act out
> until they either grow up and learn the truth on
> their own or watch them keep it up until everyone
> learns to ignore them. Go ahead and try it once
> or twice, but don't lose any sleep over not being
> able to help someone see the error of their ways.

I don't lose any sleep, just hoping Choupijiang isn't like Astroboy and unwilling to accept any deviation from China's self claimed history. Astroboy is a nutjob when it comes to china but Choupijiang seems intelligent anyway.


This forum is just a place for me to debate and argue (and help people with English when they need it). I like debating as it helps me to learn. A debate like this has taught me a lot about the Yuan Dynasty and Gengis Khan (got sidetracked on his history as well).

It's so difficult to explain to a westerner the idea of kinship, love for one's motherland and the sense of camaraderie with fellow compatriots that I won't even try.

When the opening of the Beijing Olympics was telecast live, many Chinese (both mainlanders and overseas Chinese alike) watched with a sense of awe, pride and the realization that if a single race were to put its mind into achieving something, it can be done. And done beautifully.

I guess it would be a bit like how the Spanish felt when their country won the World Cup.

I think it might just be a simple difference in what the word "love" means. I too watched the opening ceremony with a sense of awe, pride, etc...but that to me is more about pride, admiration, respect, and many other things, but not love. I volunteered at a fundraiser after the Sichuan earthquake and I had so many powerful feelings that night; at one point tears even came to my eyes. There have been many times in America when I have taken part in something or witnessed an event that brought such powerful emotions out of me...I DO understand these feelings, I understand the ideas presented by many who have answered this question with such answers. It really is not so hard to understand, there is no mystery or deep meaning...the only mystery is why some people are so reluctant or seem unable to give simple answers to a simple question, but I DO know the answer to that - or at least one answer. I have spoken with hundreds of Chinese during my time in China and when I posted this question it was in the hope of finding some different answers other than what I have been given so far. So please, stop trying to "explain" this concept because there is no need. I get it. I got it the first dozen times I heard it. Many Chinese have been able to answer this question with the ease expected and have told me things they like and things they do not like about China, and have been able to openly discuss whether they really do love China or if it is just something that they have been conditioned by parents, teachers, and others to say. They also have explained to me why other Chinese can not or will not answer this question. As I have stated before this post was an honest attempt to get a better understanding so if you have anything new to say, please do, but you can stop trying to use the "nobody can understand Chinese (fill in the blank)" explanation because I have heard it so much that pretty soon I will be one of the billion repeating it.

By the way, one of my best friends in China is from Spain. He was out celebrating their victory until the early hours, and I'm sure felt pride, joy, passion and many other emotions. Ask him if he loves Spain any more or less because of that, and I'm pretty sure his answer will be that a World Cup victory does little or nothing to change his feelings towards his country because the everyday reality of life there is still the same. If anything, knowing him, he'd probably scoff a bit because the government could use that victory to mask the disadvantages and shortcomings of life in Spain. My friend would be very eager to openly answer this question of what he likes and dislikes about Spain and whether or not he loves the country, and it would be based on things like environmental policies, government actions, social programs, standard of living, social and cultural factors, etc...you know, things that actually have lasting meaning to the average citizen's life.

Astroboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's so difficult to explain to a westerner the
> idea of kinship, love for one's motherland and the
> sense of camaraderie with fellow compatriots that
> I won't even try.

Thanks because while 90% of the Chinese I meet tell me how Chinese people in China are outright screwing over any other person they can to make a dollar it just makes me laugh to hear your idiocy.

> When the opening of the Beijing Olympics was
> telecast live, many Chinese (both mainlanders and
> overseas Chinese alike) watched with a sense of
> awe, pride and the realization that if a single
> race were to put its mind into achieving
> something, it can be done. And done beautifully.

Done beautifully! And fake. Fake fireworks, fake singing, fake 56 minorities! JIA YOU CHINA! YOU CAN DO IT!!!!

> I guess it would be a bit like how the Spanish
> felt when their country won the World Cup.

Another meaningless token to blind the people as to just how fucked their corporate rulers in all countries have screwed them. I'd scold you as always, about how you are letting the people of your country down by pretending success when it's obviously not but you don't care. You're one of the moderately rich who get all excited about how they are almost rich so they would never talk bad about the REAL rich because if things go bad you can always escape to a developed country. Or you're a computer cafe retard who has no idea about his country. Either way you're an idiot.

I don't like "piling on" but I do have to agree with Uberche on one point. At the risk of generalizing, I would say that the talk of kinship, unity, and a peaceful Chinese society where the people all care for each other does seem to be just that - talk. As in, all talk. I hear it so much in words but almost never see it expressed in action. People have to lock up their bicycles, no matter how old and near-worthless they might be, for fear of them being stolen. Leave your cell phone on a table or drop it somewhere without realizing it? What are the chances of having it returned? I hear so many stories of crooked landlords, men trying to steal each other's girlfriends and buy virgins as mistresses from college (or high school campuses), people at the market trying to milk every last jiao they can, corrupt police and politicians, I could go on and on. I know SO many great Chinese people at the same time though. My conclusion? Just like other countries, China has some good people and some terrible people, and the society is neither the most "harmonious" nor is it the least, however there are MANY ways in which the typical behaviors of many Chinese have nothing to do with kinship, respect, or unified hearts and minds. I believe that the three biggest motivations in the hearts of men the world over are sex, money, and power, and in a society that favors men so strongly, there can be little harmony.

You guys are probably operating out of Beijing or some big 1st tier city so I can understand your fish-bowl view of China.

My mum just got back from Foshan, a small city outside Guangzhou, after a long stay there visiting relatives etc. When she checked out from the hotel, the chambermaid gave my mum a warm hug and shed tears of sadness while asking when they can meet again. These are the kind of "kinship" among Chinese that I am talking about which a white foreigner will probably never experience in China.

I'm sorry to say all you guys will ever meet throughout your entire stay are the wannabes who want to practice English and probably parrot your views about how fucked up China is - and yeah, if you could get them a green card in America, that would be great, too.

Wow - I didn't want to believe what Uberche wrote about you when I first started reading posts here, but I am starting to understand now. You really like to make assumptions don't you? You know nothing about me, have never asked where I've been in China, and yet you think you know all about where I have "probably" been and what I've "probably" done. Not only are you totally wrong about me, but your conclusions based on incorrect assumptions are also laughable. I have never been to Beijing and the majority of my time has been in small-town rural China. I have been to Foshan and other cities around Guangdong, both larger and smaller. You know, most Chinese I know, maybe 95% or more, will not even hug their own parents, and few will cry or show very much emotion when saying farewell to people and places that mean a lot to them. Your mother's experience is something I would wager is about as from the normal "kinship" shown by Chinese as you can get. I have seen the women walk around holding hands or sometimes the young guys with their arms around each other on their scooters (thought 75% of Chinese were gay when I first came here) but I think that is more about personal friendship than kinship among random fellow citizens.

For the record, I personally hate it when Chinese want to "practice English" and avoid these types at all costs; excusing myself as quickly as manners and courtesy will allow when I am in such a situation. Also, do you know how many girls I could have scored if I played the "green card" game? The opposite is true. I tell people that I have no plans to go back to America and may never return. As for "parroting" my views on China? How can they do that when they answer the question without even knowing my opinion or in some cases who is even asking?

Is it too much to ask that you either learn to debate properly, think independently, and admit that you are not omniscient or stop posting such ridiculous replies?

Astroboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys are probably operating out of Beijing or
> some big 1st tier city so I can understand your
> fish-bowl view of China.
>
> My mum just got back from Foshan, a small city
> outside Guangzhou, after a long stay there
> visiting relatives etc. When she checked out from
> the hotel, the chambermaid gave my mum a warm hug
> and shed tears of sadness while asking when they
> can meet again. These are the kind of "kinship"
> among Chinese that I am talking about which a
> white foreigner will probably never experience in
> China.
>
> I'm sorry to say all you guys will ever meet
> throughout your entire stay are the wannabes who
> want to practice English and probably parrot your
> views about how fucked up China is - and yeah, if
> you could get them a green card in America, that
> would be great, too.

Jesus... do you ever stop your whining about this? It's been shown as a lie a number of times..

Xietingfeng Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it too much to ask that you either learn to
> debate properly, think independently, and admit
> that you are not omniscient or stop posting such
> ridiculous replies?

The sad thing is that with Astro I'm pretty sure it is too much...

Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Choupijiang Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > >I'm saying they are wrong. The Egyptians would
> be
> > very surprised to hear
> > >they are gone I think.
> >
> > They meant the civilization. Of course the
> people
> > are still here, even Mayans are still here.
>
> The Egyptian civilization is still the in the same
> way China is, it's changed obviously but so is
> China.
>
> > >The simple fact is there is nothing in China
> > today that links the Chinese
> > >people of today with their ancestors of 5000
> > years ago except their own
> > >internal feelings. The culture has changed
> > completely (most recently with
> > >the cultural revolution and the cult of
> Maoism)
> > their country has been
> > >broken and split and reconquered numerous
> times
> > (check the maps if you
> > >don't believe me), China is the same as all
> the
> > rest of the ancient
> > >civilizations except it seems to have the
> > incessant need to try and pretend
> > >to be different, like some teenager screaming
> > "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ME!!!"
> > >at everyone around them
> >
> > Regarding this, obviously you have your own
> fancy
> > definition of what civilization is, and please
> > read Moroes' post and compare to what you have
> > said. Then, you will know where you went wrong.
>
> Sorry, you're right. Nothing linking is too
> exaggerated. But it still stands that China today
> is very different than ancient China, just like in
> Egypt they still have some of the same cultural
> parts but overall the modern society and modern
> culture is very different than the ancient society
> and ancient culture.
>
>
> I guess the simplest way to ask this question is
> "What makes people say China stayed around and not
> the other Ancient civilizations which are
> obviously still here?"
>
> China's size and shape has changed, it's culture
> has greatly changed and it was conquered by
> outside forces.


I'm no expert, but the Chinese language, especially written, for much of what it is is still around and in living use ( compared with ancient civilizations that used hieroglyphs have disappeared ). Also, from what I remember, Chinese civilization invented bureacracy, which is still around and used as a means of administration and control.

Guestpass0001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm no expert, but the Chinese language,
> especially written, for much of what it is is
> still around and in living use ( compared with
> ancient civilizations that used hieroglyphs have
> disappeared ). Also, from what I remember,
> Chinese civilization invented bureacracy, which is
> still around and used as a means of administration
> and control.

For the Chinese writing you can claim it still has its roots from hieroglyphs. But the Chinese characters were evolving so its not still around and in living use.

Moroes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the Chinese writing you can claim it still has
> its roots from hieroglyphs. But the Chinese
> characters were evolving so its not still around
> and in living use.


The fact that a language is "evolving", by definition, is alive. Simplified characters is another modern evolution. And your conclusion contradicts reality. The Chinese language has kept up with the times inventing new words for new things, while old sayings are still commonly used.

Guestpass0001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact that a language is "evolving", by
> definition, is alive. Simplified characters is
> another modern evolution. And your conclusion
> contradicts reality. The Chinese language has
> kept up with the times inventing new words for new
> things, while old sayings are still commonly used.

Actually when things evolve they change. We don't say Humans are the animal we evolved from, we say they are human because in evolution things change and what was is no more.

But even pretending evolving doesn't change things Persia spoke Farsi and it's still in common use today. So again. Why is China supposedly the only ancient civilization still around?

Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Actually when things evolve they change. We don't
> say Humans are the animal we evolved from, we say
> they are human because in evolution things change
> and what was is no more.

Your semantic arguement is off the point. Use "change" or some other word if it's better.


> But even pretending evolving doesn't change things
> Persia spoke Farsi and it's still in common use
> today.

And I never said that Chinese was the only ancient or old language still alive.

So again. Why is China supposedly the only
> ancient civilization still around?

I wasn't answering your question per se, rather responding to the entire quoted text. Since they were not yet mentioned in the discussion, I gave two aspects, language and administration and control via bureaucracy, as to why I think China is a continuous civilization from ancient times to today. I would also include Confucianism and Taoism as having a profound influence on today's society.

Guestpass0001 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Uberche Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Actually when things evolve they change. We
> don't
> > say Humans are the animal we evolved from, we
> say
> > they are human because in evolution things
> change
> > and what was is no more.
>
> Your semantic arguement is off the point. Use
> "change" or some other word if it's better.

I wouldn't call it semantic when talking about if a ancient civilization is teh same civilization as the modern one, as the amount a language has changed or evolved is quite indicative.

> I wasn't answering your question per se, rather
> responding to the entire quoted text. Since they
> were not yet mentioned in the discussion, I gave
> two aspects, language and administration and
> control via bureaucracy, as to why I think China
> is a continuous civilization from ancient times to
> today. I would also include Confucianism and
> Taoism as having a profound influence on today's
> society.

Agreed completely. Just was confused why you were replying to me but such is life.

Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guestpass0001 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > I wasn't answering your question per se, rather
> > responding to the entire quoted text. Since
> they
> > were not yet mentioned in the discussion, I
> gave
> > two aspects, language and administration and
> > control via bureaucracy, as to why I think
> China
> > is a continuous civilization from ancient times
> to
> > today. I would also include Confucianism and
> > Taoism as having a profound influence on
> today's
> > society.
>
> Agreed completely. Just was confused why you were
> replying to me but such is life.

Yeah, another interesting thing from what I remember is that a hallmark of the bureaucracy was another Chinese invention, the civil service examination, basically Confucianism by rote and probably some poetry. Of course that Imperial examination ended with the dynasties, but I'm darn sure that today's government also has an examination for civil service, what government doesn't today? So there is another aspect that has been continued from ancient times to today, the civil service examination. But anyway, it explains so much. That's why Chinese have this emphasis on education, because it was a way to move up out of the village or town ghetto, a way to get some respect. Of course the rich son (because it was male only) from the rich family probably had a better chance, but it was open, I guess theoretically, to anyone. There are lots and lots of stories about their travel to the capital to take the exam because they were educated and could write, even stories from the ones that failed the examinations since most of them did. Anyone could check it out watching movies or that character in movies set in the old style genre.

They should pass some laws against this type of advertising (jamming internet chat forums with unwanted and in this case very poorly targeted ads) and sue the people who do it. I know it is a small thing, but it gets so tiresome.

"you must love what you're", Why? because you're........

That's a kind of eastern culture. We should proud about something related to us because our parents tell us.
Something like family, society, nation, language or culture. You will be weird if you don't be proud of your culture (eventhough you've never care about it.)

Yeah, that is one of the answers I already knew (proud because we are told to be instead of for our own reasons) but I was looking for something a little more independent. Thanks for the input.

Hi everyone, I have been here because I'd like to help someone with his Mandarin.If you want improve your Chinese , you can email me. It is :kinlone@qq.com. Thanks

.....

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2012 02:41AM by Lynn35211.