I miss going to big book stores and just browsing for hours...

As for the "Do they know?" issue, personally I'd say they know full well what their actions are doing but personal greed wins out. There is no way an economist with a full view of what is going on couldn't know. (Greenspan especially...)

I would say a lot of people knew the crash was coming, actually I'd say the major crash still hasn't happened to be honest, and they were just essentially pillaging the coffers before hand. If you look at a lot of what the Bush Jr. Administration did that's pretty much what his entire campaign was, Taking the money that was made during the boom years and just reorganizing it into the areas that him and his friends were a part of.

I don't have any real proof for this belief that they knew what they were doing, just my own opinion that I got from reading about it all while it was happening and studying the clusterfuck it has left us with.

People always talk about the mess Bush Jr.'s administration left behind but it's also very true that certain areas and people made obscene amounts of money and most of those people were friends and business partners of the Reagan Crew, Bush Sr., Cheney and his entire administration. The Left in the USA was happy when Reagan was out of office but the people behind his policies never left power, they've been there ever since behind Bush Sr and Jr and, to a lesser extent, even Clinton.

The craziest thing, and the thing that makes me think that very little is beyond these people in the quest for power and money, is that even those in the Iran/Contra affair, which we now know was behind the massive Crack Boom in the USA leading to a complete destruction of the Black areas of major cities, massive violence and murder as well as the imprisonment of millions of young black men (not to mention funding death squads all over Nicaragua whose actions were horrific), were mostly all let go and either are still in power or have positions where they can put their ideas to those in power. Hell Ollie North, the face of the Iran/Contra Affair, is a regular contributor to Fox News and is put forth as an American Hero... it's crazy.

I agree that many of them must have known what was happening. During the housing bubble, the value of housing was outpacing increases in real income by 80%. Of course, there had to come a point where there was nobody left to flip houses TO. The media ought to have known the huge problem as well but remained strangely silent. It has been packaging info-entertainment as news to cater to the herd of zombies that preoccupies itself with trivia (celebrity gossip, sports) and can be so readily conned by the promise of an easy buck in "risk-free" investments. You, Uberche, keep on saying that you hate governments everywhere but like/love the people of those countries. I don't have much/any respect for governments anywhere but don't think highly of a good chunk of its population that seems incapable/unwilling/ignorant of achieving democracy.

At this point, i'm not so cynical YET that i believe the entire debacle was deliberately and carefully engineered by a few diabolical masterminds at the top of the power/money chain. I still believe that it was personal greed by people who didn't see the impact of their actions on the overall economy by the sum total of similar actions by others.

I do suspect that there are millions of people who for years now are just as angered and frustrated as I and who don't know what actions to take (protesting in the streets and smashing windows isn't it). Now, if that anger and frustration can be harnessed we can start changing the current system under which we use capitalism for the profits and socialism for the losses.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2009 11:18AM by Tangerine.

yeah i'm really hoping the anger that is out there can be brought out in useful and constructive ways instead of just tearing things down and trying again everytime as that never seems to really fix anything haha

This is why I don't see war as a valid option (well... one of many reasons anyway) like OBC keeps saying...

Tangerine,

You insightfully state,
"I do suspect that there are millions of people who for years now are just as angered and frustrated as I and who don't know what actions to take (protesting in the streets and smashing windows isn't it). Now, if that anger and frustration can be harnessed we can start changing the current system under which we use capitalism for the profits and socialism for the losses."

There are a great number of people who understand the GPE* in varying degrees. Those who know what is really going on and want to do something about it essentially fall into two camps, the moderates and the extremists.

Based on your view above, you are one of the moderates or those who basically feel that grass-roots initiatives resulting in people power can remove the GPE* from power peacefully within the existing system. For myself and others like me, we believe it is already too late and/or impossible to remove the GPE* from power without the use of some sort of violence (i.e., revolution, guerilla tactics, war, etc.).

The fact that you see hope in your moderate views is very admirable given the current state of the whole World and how close it is in potentially reverting in GPE's* ultimate goal of neo-feudalism. However, given those of us who have studied the GPE* for some time now and seeing how they can create wars, economic/financial crises, create and spread biological epidemics, and etc.; you either must be able to unite all of the people of the World into your non-violent revolution or be the second coming of Jesus Christ to get everyone to peacefully remove the GPE* from global power.

I, on the other hand, do not think a moderate approach is possible. For any movement to work, large somes of money/resources are needed to feed its following. If such resources are not able to be forthcoming for a lengthly amount of time, any movement, especially one that targets the GPE*, will never get the numbers necessary to affect the removal of the GPE* it seeks.

Consequently, this is why those with similar views to my own know that moderate movements to remove the GPE* from power have a very small chance of success. Furthermore, moderate approaches also share in the weakness of hope through which the GPE* with their monopoly in currency creation can and will always use to exploit, subvert, undermind, divide, and conquer. Hence, even one who treks on a non-violent crusade to remove the GPE*, he or she will eventually realize in the long-run that they must move to the next step to win.


OBC

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 02:26AM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Tangerine,
>
> You insightfully state,

T smiles with pleasure and makes a deep bow.

Quote:
Those who know what is really going on and want to do something about it essentially fall into two camps, the moderates and the extremists. For myself and others like me, we believe it is already too late and/or impossible to remove the GPE* from power without the use of some sort of violence (i.e., revolution, guerilla tactics, war, etc.).

I agree with you there is a small, insular club of people that has extraordinary and excessive power in this world. But I don’t believe its endgame is a macabre neo-feudalism and a major war its means on how to achieve this. My concern that this century might even become uglier than the last one isn’t due to the ambitions of the GPE but due to overpopulation. The planet seems to march toward its long-postponed encounter with Malthus and there’s great potential for wars over fossil fuels but, even more likely, over water and food. It’s alarming to read that the Green Revolution is already proving to be a disaster in the Punjab. This doesn’t bode well for our future.

Quote:
For any movement to work, large sums of money/resources are needed to feed
its following. If such resources are not able to be forthcoming for a lengthy amount of time, any movement, especially one that targets the GPE*

The Internet is our friend! You only have to look at the Obama presidential campaign to recognize how a message that resonates can bring in record amounts of money from the common people. We also can scale back the power of the GPE in which financial institutions are well represented. Banks have been screwing people for decades; it’s time we screw them back by changing our consumer patterns. Ditto with Big Oil, ditto with all the corporations that have peddled junk to us as somehow being good for us or making us happier.

One of the potentially good things that have come out of the current economic crisis is that it has opened the eyes of many people. Finally, they’re starting to recognize that the American Dream has been long dead. There’s no point in acquiescing to the Right and favor tax advantages for the wealthy in the hope that they themselves one day will join their ranks and share equally in their privileges. (Disclaimer: I’m an Independent and distrustful of all major political party machines but the Republicans are heading for a well-deserved extinction). Instead of glorifying wealth and admiring wasteful lifestyles that includes 20 million dollar vacation homes in The Hamptons and in other glamour spots on the globe, people are following a definite trend underway toward shaming the wealthy. Surely, I haven’t been the only one chuckling each time upon learning that the greedy CEO bastards could only walk around the companies they ruined with 24/7 body guards so as not to be shot to death by one of their former subordinates (and former millionaires themselves)? True, you can protect yourself rather well when you’re sitting on a comfortable billion but, eventually, the new hatred directed at the power boys must become claustrophobic to them.

There have been freedom fighters like Lenin, Castro, and Mugabe. There have also been freedom fighters like Ghandi, King, and Mandela. The actions of the latter have resulted in more freedom and happiness.

It’s not too late yet. There’s still hope.

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 10:57AM by Tangerine.

Tangerine,

You recollect,
"You only have to look at the Obama presidential campaign to recognize how a message that resonates can bring in record amounts of money from the common people. We also can scale back the power of the GPE in which financial institutions are well represented. Banks have been screwing people for decades;"

Well, the US is fiscally bankrupt, as with many of its states and, since you live in the US, you already know of the the mass layoffs and the record setting unemployment rate. Hence, there is very little money that common people can offer for GPE* crusaders.

When you say scaling back the power of the bankers, you realize, of course, this is an impossibility as they are the ones who print the money we have in our pockets. Unless you open a Bank of Tangerine, the powers of the bankers can not be overthrown without a suitable replacement for the basic life's needs of the common people.

You also mention,
"There have been freedom fighters like Lenin, Castro, and Mugabe. There have also been freedom fighters like Ghandi, King, and Mandela. The actions of the latter have resulted in more freedom and happiness."

As for these freedom fighters you mentioned above, you must already know that they were not moderates, but extremists to varying degrees. With Lenin, Castro, and Mugabe, violence was a major part of their respective programs. Moreover, even in the case of Ghandi, King, and Mandela, there were numerous episodes of intentional/unintentional violence and death in the movements they led.

Sadly, no matter how you look at it, there will be blood spilled in any attempt to remove the GPE* from power. Hence, if this be the case, then logic dictates that any movement directed against the GPE* should be aware and/or be ready to embrace the form of violence it will need to remove them from power.


OBC

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 01:03PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

We're over the worst of the recession. I grant that most of recent good news is the result of accounting gimmicks by allowing different valuations on investment portfolios. Yet, confidence is slowly returning to the markets. Job recovery will probably not happen until later in 2010. What will be imperative is implementing strong regulations with something like a clearing-house, as proposed by Geithner, over the products the investment bankers concoct, global regulations over tax havens, reserve requirements, executive pay limitations. What we'll also need is to remove the conflict of interest by rating agencies (i.e. the Standard & Poors of the investment world that rake in billions by, in their own words, merely exercising free speech by not offering ratings but "opinions"), and an shift in emphasis away from short-term earnings per share by Wall Street.

The People's Movement won't need a great deal of funds initially; it can affect enormous change by activism. Just a few off-the-cuff suggestions:

1. Don't buy stock, either directly or through a mutual/401K fund, in companies that pay their executives enormous compensations.

2. Stop using credit cards.

3. Stop driving gas guzzlers; permanently change your driving pattern

4. Live within your means.

5. Start demanding transparency from politicians. We're cynical about the whole bunch but haven't done much about them.

The US is not fiscally bankrupt. It still has tremendous taxing capability. If you compare US with many other nations, you'll probably find that the US' tax rates are very low. Particularly for the super-wealthy!

Feel free to make deposits at the Bank of Tangerine. Its sole bank-teller/CEO will give you the red carpet treatment.

How do you propose to take on the GPE other than preparing for war?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 06:36PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine,

Good day-to-day suggestions in your last post.

You ask,
"How do you propose to take on the GPE other than preparing for war?"

Other than what I have posted in the past regarding this issue and unless someone can offer a more realistic solution, I am afraid war is the only way out. The fact that you and particularly Uberche do not agree with this prospect actually serves the GPE* in that they are actually counting on your reluctance to fight to stay in-power.


OBC

Suggestions 1 and 5 are useful and also to inform others. The internet is a good vehicle for that.

If you see the danger of war looming (so far, you haven't presented anything concrete to support this notion), wouldn't you do your utmost to prevent it? Unless, of course, you welcome such a war. That's always the impression you give me and i'm always baffled by it.

Tangerine,

As I have posted numerous times, the GPE* via their US proxy are working to control Eurasia. Hence, they will fund terrorist groups, elite ethnic minorities, and etc. to begin softening up Russia and China for the actual war in the near future.

If you were ask me today what will trigger this battle for Eurasia, I would say Georgia, Iran, North Korea, and/or Taiwan. Having said that, I also have mentioned that such a war is a double-edged sword that both Russia and China can use to defeat the GPE*.

What does this mean?

Well, assuming the defeat of the US by Russia and China, her military bases would be overrun by the common people in all of the vassal states controlled by the GPE* and thus returning the political authority of those countries back to the people.

Moreover, the defeat of the US and her allies would destroy the financial apparatus the GPE* uses to enforce their economic will onto other nations and thus also return the monetary authority back to the sovereignty of each nation.

Finally, the much secret CFR, Trilateral Commission, Chatham House, and the Bilderburgers would be rendered defunct; thereby, severely curtailing most, but not all, of the GPE's* political power for at least the next century.

Not bad an outcome from war.


OBC

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2009 09:33PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
As I have posted numerous times ...

I probably didn't read them. I stopped reading your posts soon after your appearance at this forum because of your portrayal of a war with the US as the recipe toward solving all of China's ills.

Quote:
both Russia and China can use to defeat the GPE*

In this post you make the giant leap that these countries will defeat the West.

Quote:
thus returning the political authority of those countries back to the
people.

Right! People have been truly happy when living under the freedom extended by the Soviet Union and by the steady diet of near-starvation in N. Korea and Myanmar since China kindly began to support the regimes in these countries.

Quote:
Finally, the much secret CFR, Trilateral
> Commission, Chatham House, and the Bilderburgers

The existence of such secret clubs is cause for alarm but both Russia and China have their own secret organizations that rule the land.

Quote:
Not bad an outcome from war.

You don't have the power to initiate such a war but you dream about it fervently. Therefore, YOU will have the blood of 30, 40, 100 million or more people (many of them Chinese) on your hands. Can your conscience live with that? The emoticon told me that you consider such loss of life inconsequential collateral damage. And all this for your notion of an idealized China that doesn't exist.

After reading your post yesterday afternoon, i saw the pictures posted by that nutcase from Yemen who periodically posts his vitriol on all the forums here. Suspect you saw those posts and pictures as well. You're more intelligent and restrained than he, but your level of hatred is about the same. Maybe you received too many lashes of the bamboo stick in your childhood and was told too often to use the U.S. to your maximum benefit but to never trust it. Hatred is an all-consuming emotion and doesn't leave room for any others. Your existence in the U.S. must be rather lonely for which viewing yourself as a tragic figure exiled from Paradise can't quite compensate. It must be painful to deny that part of yourself formed by the US where you've lived all your life (40-50 years or so?).

Hope some of these words will reach the bull's eye of your soul.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2009 11:21AM by Tangerine.

Tangerine,

You analyze,
"Right! People have been truly happy when living under the freedom extended by the Soviet Union and by the steady diet of near-starvation in N. Korea and Myanmar since China kindly began to support the regimes in these countries."

The point is to return sovereignty to the indigenous peoples of all of the nations directly/indirectly influenced by the GPE*. It is interesting that you would mention the Soviet Union, the DPRK, and Burma. All of these examples, whose regimes that you apparently dislike, were products of the GPE*. The revolutionaries responsible for the creation of the Soviet Union were backed-up by GPE* bankers and the support of China to the DPRK and Burma is a direct response to GPE* encroachment via the US.

You point out,
"The existence of such secret clubs is cause for alarm but both Russia and China have their own secret organizations that rule the land."

This is true, but irrelevant as long as those societies are and controlled by elements of the native Chinese and Russian population. If those societies behave malbenevolently, it is the common people in those countries problem to address them, accordingly. However, at least China and Russia can live without the hindrance of outside influence trying to break-up both nations.

You ask,
"Can your conscience live with that? The emoticon told me that you consider such loss of life inconsequential collateral damage. And all this for your notion of an idealized China that doesn't exist."

"Warfare is providence." Let me remind you that although I look forward to a war that I have constantly described for the outcomes I recently posted, it will be the GPE* that will start those wars. It is the opportunity to use that war that they will start against them that I relish. Even after such a war of GPE* liberation, China will have to do a lot of domestic cleaning-up, afterwards. Bloody? Yes, but necessary and very common throughout China's illustrious history.


OBC

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2009 12:49PM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Quote:
This is true, but irrelevant as long as those societies are and controlled by elements of the native Chinese and Russian population. If those societies behave malbenevolently, it is the common people in those countries problem to address them, accordingly. However, at least China and Russia can live without the hindrance of outside influence trying to break-up both nations.

This by far is my favourite thing about OBC, He has said this sort of thing many times, it really seems that he doesn't care about the rich controlling everyone (hence his not putting forth ideas that would actually get rid of them, just weaken those in power already), he's just pissed off right now it's mostly a Western Centric group doing it. If it was a Chinese led group I bet he'd be filling recruitment forms daily to join them...

Sad thing for him though is if it was a Chinese group in power he'd be excluded what with him being American...

Uberche,

It has been a while since I have written to you.

You surmise,
"...he doesn't care about the rich controlling everyone (hence his not putting forth ideas that would actually get rid of them, just weaken those in power already)"

First of all, I am not a true Marxist, as by your statement above, you appear to be. Second, I am not against rich people as long as they do not exert an overwhelming influence in the political authority of any nation. However, as this appears to becoming the case in China, the power of the rich in China should be curtailed, accordingly. This act of defanging only those rich people in China who are corrupt can only occur during or in the aftermath of China's entry into a major war when "all bets are off."


OBC

OBC wrote:

Quote:
This is true, but irrelevant as long as those societies are and controlled by elements of the native Chinese and Russian population.

To the millions who perished during the Great Leap Forward and to those whose lives were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution to realize that their suffering wasn't caused by evil foreigners but by their own wise Chairman Mao must have been a great comfort.

On an entirely different note, i heard an interesting segment on Fresh Air today about Snake Heads (= Chinese human smugglers). Here's the link to anyone who's interested:

[www.npr.org]

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2009 06:28PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the millions who perished during the Great Leap
> Forward and to those whose lives were destroyed
> during the Cultural Revolution to realize that
> their suffering wasn't caused by evil foreigners
> but by their own wise Chairman Mao must have been
> a great comfort.

Well it's like I've always said "I don't care if a White person kills my family, as long as it ain't them darkies!"

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, I am not a true Marxist, as by your
> statement above, you appear to be. Second, I am
> not against rich people as long as they do not
> exert an overwhelming influence in the political
> authority of any nation. However, as this appears
> to becoming the case in China, the power of the
> rich in China should be curtailed, accordingly.
> This act of defanging only those rich people in
> China who are corrupt can only occur during or in
> the aftermath of China's entry into a major war
> when "all bets are off."

First of all, I'm not an anythingist. Second, you're really quite sick. Problem in China? Kill Americans! That will help! Enjoy your sick dreams.

maybe he didn't think about so many things when he talked.
we have too complicated ideas.

Uberche,

You twist my meaning,
"Problem in China? Kill Americans!"

You apparently love to oversimplify my fundamental contentions with such statements above. Although you cleverly overstate how all governments are bad as well as being one-and-the-same, you continually fail to clearly point out how the US continuously screwed China over since WWII. If one were to conduct a simple cost/benefit analysis on the relationship between the US and China, it becomes clear that China always had the short end of the stick.

I, at least, point out that it is not the fault of the American people per se, as the US is controlled by the GPE*. However, Americans must realize and accept all the anger and violence against them for the imperial acts of terror caused by their GPE* controlled government.


OBC

OBC:

Quote:
However, Americans must realize and accept all the anger and violence against them for the imperial acts of terror caused by their GPE* controlled government.

You ARE one of those Americans!

By having always remained in the US and having supported it by giving it your labor and your taxes while you had ample resources to move to another country, you have in effect condoned its actions. By stating otherwise on a little forum will not change those basic facts.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot claim the moral high road but then doing nothing to extract yourself from a situation that, if i were in your shoes, would be morally repugnant to me. I have tried to bring this point across to you in many posts but you either have ignored those comments or offered feeble excuses why presumably you cannot do otherwise.

If i associate with and support a murderer, then i am an accomplice even if i don't fully agree with his actions. My only moral choice would be to escape even at the risk of personal inconvenience, danger, and the risk of being killed in the process. One can have only an existence with nominal risks if one tosses one's morals and values out of the window. One can't remain sitting on the comfy couch and lamenting how one hates the situation. Well, one can but it doesn't earn any of my respect.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2009 12:35PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine,

You claim,
"You ARE one of those Americans!...If i associate and support with a murderer, then i am an accomplice even if i don't fully condone his actions...You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot claim the moral high road but then doing nothing to extract yourself from a situation that, if i were in your shoes, would be morally repugnant to me."

First of all, it is unfortunate that the common people of any nation are subject to the wars and violence brought out by the actions of their government. However, what can those people do? It is not that easy for any American to say to his family, "O.K., time to leave the US for Niger", in the absence of some clear and present danger.

Second, if the enemies of the US decide to blow the country up and I happen to be in the US at that time, then of course I would be blown-up as well. Hence, I do not see myself in "having my cake and eating it too", as I would not be around to eat it.


OBC

But, if i were to believe your posts, the danger of the GPE starting a major war is imminent!

And you've hated the US for so long that you had decades to move away from it instead of entrenching yourself further into it. You really have no excuse, you know (and you do know but will never admit it).

I always have respect for dissidents in whatever country and whether i agree with their agenda or not. They risk their lives, the safety of their family, everything, for their beliefs that they hold dearer than anything else. Those people will always have my utmost respect. I have no respect for the wishy-washy opportunists.

You fervently believe in your idealized China and in the belief that GPE will attack it (i disagree with you on both but soit) yet you do NOTHING (unless you're spying for China). At the same time, you don't spare an opportunity to look down from your throne and point out to people who're not buying your arguments that they are naive and ignorant. I find such behavior hypocrytical.

And your last paragraph is another attempt at playing the Victim Card. It's like saying, "Look what a tragic figure i am!" But there's nothing heroic in presumably knowing important events that will take place and decide to do nothing. (or give oneself umpteen excuses or why one can do nothing).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2009 12:52PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine,

I said the Balkanization Wars against Russia and China are coming soon. not next week. Furthermore, for those who understand the GPE's* strategy and have a strong background in military strategy, there are signs that will signify the official opening of hostilities. Hence, once those signs are present, I, myself, will relocate to China and defend her to the end prior to the firing of the first shots of the war.

As for your accusation that I look down on others who do not agree with my views, you are wrong. I do not presume for anyone to believe in anything I say. Rather, I want people, as you already have, to research what I presented and make a conclusion for themselves. However, specifically for the Chinese audience in this forum, I really hope that they take into strong consideration of everything I have posted. This is because if I am wrong, then my people have nothing to fear. If I am right, then they will be ready for the war that the GPE* has in store for us all.


OBC

Quote:
Hence, once those signs are present, I, myself, will relocate to China and defend her to the end prior to the firing of the first shots of the war.

Will you get me to China as well then? After all, i think i've proven myself a feisty lady and it's better to fight on the same side More importantly, i would aspire to be the Hemingway of this great war.

For whom the bell tolls
it tolls for OBC

Tangerine,

If you are willing to face the bombs thrown by the US, you are welcomed to join.

If you plan to write what events transpire while you are there, what a novel it will be.


OBC

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You twist my meaning,
> "Problem in China? Kill Americans!"

If you have twisted logic don't blame me.

> You apparently love to oversimplify my fundamental
> contentions with such statements above. Although
> you cleverly overstate how all governments are bad
> as well as being one-and-the-same, you continually
> fail to clearly point out how the US continuously
> screwed China over since WWII. If one were to
> conduct a simple cost/benefit analysis on the
> relationship between the US and China, it becomes
> clear that China always had the short end of the
> stick.

yeah, the massive boom they are going through and the trillions of dollars they've made that have allowed them to get out of their previous years of starvation and poverty has really been a terrible thing for them. How's ignoring history going for you?

And before you whine and scream about the past, you didn't say the US has been bad, YOU said that China has ALWAYS had the short end. Any logically thinking person can EASILY see that right now China has the gold end of the stick, the USA's economy is being emptied into China (and India).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 12:18AM by Uberche.

Uberche,

You arrogantly state,
"yeah, the massive boom they are going through and the trillions of dollars they've made that have allowed them to get out of their previous years of starvation and poverty has really been a terrible thing for them."

You make it sound like without the US, China would have stayed in a Third World state till the present. Such a statement is false, since no one knows for sure how China's economic future would have been, if the US did not buy things from China. To jump to the conclusion that China's current economic situation was entirely due to the generousity of the US is arrogant and simply perposterous.

You confuse yourself,
"Any logically thinking person can EASILY see that right now China has the gold end of the stick, the USA's economy is being emptied into China (and India)."

Aside from geomilitary encroachment, supporting of independence movements of China's minorities, and the arming of China's regional enemies; the GPE* led US has always benefited from its dealings with China. If you are trying to claim that China and India, for that mattter, as having an economic advantage in the current global financial crisis, you are naive indeed.

China and India, to a lesser extent, still holds in its treasury trillions of worthless US treasury bonds and other similar toxic derivatives. Should the US default on its global debts, as what might well be the case in the near future, the GPE* led US would have gotten away with perhaps the largest robbery of China's wealth in her 5,000 year history. Such an event would easily dwarf the exploitation of China by all the combined Imperialist powers during the 18th and 19th century.

In light of the above, it is you who has twisted logic and a selectively narrow view of China's history.


OBC

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 02:14AM by Overseas.Born.Chinese.

Correction: China holds about 800 billion in US debt; second is Japan with about 677 billion. That represents roughly 24% and 20% of US public debt held by foreign governments. Most of US public debt is in the form of intragovernmental debt, i.e. the unsustainable entitlement programs.

There are always two sides to a coin: China's heavy investment in US debt poses a risk if the US were to default but it also provides China with a great lever over US foreign policies.

I obtained these figures from

[en.wikipedia.org]

and verified some of the numbers with data directly from the US Treasury, such as

[www.treas.gov]

With all due respect, OBC, anyone who bought those toxic derivatives was a fool and would have known better if he had done any due diligence. Doesn't matter whether those investors were China, France, Lehman Brothers or Calpers. Do you have any figures for China's investments in the toxic soup, as i don't believe that in the overall scheme of things its investment was all that significant?

Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You make it sound like without the US, China would
> have stayed in a Third World state till the
> present. Such a statement is false, since no one
> knows for sure how China's economic future would
> have been, if the US did not buy things from
> China. To jump to the conclusion that China's
> current economic situation was entirely due to the
> generousity of the US is arrogant and simply
> perposterous.

God... this is why you are so useless to talk to. We already discussed this and you agreed China couldn't have been where it is today in such a short period of time without the massive influx of cash it has received from, mostly, the USA.
But of course you don't like things like logic and facts get in the way of your preformed opinions so here we are again...

So tell me. Exactly. How would China become the world power it has become without this money from the USA? And saying "Well we don't know for sure it couldn't!!" is idiotic... We also don't know for sure pink unicorns wont jump out of Obama's ass and shit money all over the USA but it's very unlikely.

> Aside from geomilitary encroachment, supporting of
> independence movements of China's minorities, and
> the arming of China's regional enemies; the GPE*
> led US has always benefited from its dealings with
> China. If you are trying to claim that China and
> India, for that mattter, as having an economic
> advantage in the current global financial crisis,
> you are naive indeed.

Yes, the USA supports China's minorities in wanting separation, a pretty ignorant thing to do I agree. And why does Taiwan have NO chance of ever becoming separate? Because, even though they have the entire might of the USA's army, navy and airforce behind them, China has been spending billions upon billions building a massive arsenal of missiles that soon may have the ability to wipe out the USA's pacific fleet if it strays too close.

and the other areas of China with problems, Tibet and Xinjiang, are bad I agree but nothing that's going to actually threaten China's stability long term. If the government is smart they'll pump a small fraction of the money they've made off the USA into those areas, create some great jobs and prospects for the future which will help the minorities and China and the people there will be less likely to listen to foreigners bitching about how evil China is.

The money they've gotten from the USA has created a HUGE bright future for China as, maybe (as long as they don't do anything too crazy like launching a war on the USA like some crazies are calling for), the top World Power with the money, the weapons and the people to control the sectors of power for years to come. If you think this was a bad trade off, the Chinese people are VERY lucky you are an American and have no power or say in this country.

> China and India, to a lesser extent, still holds
> in its treasury trillions of worthless US treasury
> bonds and other similar toxic derivatives. Should
> the US default on its global debts, as what might
> well be the case in the near future, the GPE* led
> US would have gotten away with perhaps the largest
> robbery of China's wealth in her 5,000 year
> history. Such an event would easily dwarf the
> exploitation of China by all the combined
> Imperialist powers during the 18th and 19th
> century.

Robbery of her wealth?! haha You are hilarious. Those "toxic derivatives" are what drove this country to the success it's had, it gave hundreds of millions of people work and food and a chance at success. If China hadn't been buying the US's currency the US couldn't have bought all of China's products which would have slowed China's growth immensely which would have created a MASSIVE hole in the public trust of China's government who promised them jobs and a bright future. China bought the US's money because China knows that money is just coming right back to China, here's how it works for those who haven't grasped the concept yet.

The USA doesn't have money to keep it's debt driven economy going so they go to China

USA: "Hey! We need some money because we spent it all on your plastic knickknacks!"
China: "Oh... I don't know... You never paid back the last loan!"
USA: "Yeah but we spent it all on your products so it's basically just you buying your own products which you can't do right now yourself because your internal economy is so weak!"
China: "Oh Right! I guess I'd have to be a bloody retard not to see that that makes sense!"
USA: "Yeah and when your internal economy is stronger you can cut us off and we'll collapse and your people can live the good life while we starve and become China's slave labour in return!"
China: "ZHONG GUO JIA YOU! ER LING LING BA JIA YOU!"

> In light of the above, it is you who has twisted
> logic and a selectively narrow view of China's
> history.

You.

Tangerine,

You surmise,
"There are always two sides to a coin: China's heavy investment in US debt poses a risk if the US were to default but it also provides China with a great lever over US foreign policies."

This is where you are wrong and where the GPE* wins. As you already know, the US Dollar is a fiat currency backed by nothing and printed at will by the currency arm (i.e., the FED) of the GPE* composed of our favorite international bankers: Rothchilds, Walburgs, Rockefellers, and etc.

China may think they can exercise soft power based on their holding of US Debt, but all the GPE* needs to do is to crash the US Dollar as we know it, watch the damage it will do economically/financially to both China and the US for that matter, and replace it with a new global fiat currency (i.e., the Amero, etc).

In the end, the GPE* will have a GPE* financially controlled China and a US population so destitute that they will be willing to become neo-serfs, as part of the GPE's* ultimate plan of neo-feudalism.


OBC