Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, you're making judgments about Amsterdam
> without ever having been there. It is NOT a major
> tourist attraction-- Amsterdam has plenty of those
> without having any need to promote its Red Light
> District. A few tourists and a few locals may walk
> through it if they're in the neighborhood. I've
> never gone there alone and never since it became
> legalized because it became too criminal then and
> i won't have any amusement about women who may be
> slaves.

There is a major sex tourist trade through Amsterdam and I'm surprised you are trying to deny it. It's not a few of tourists who "walk through it" it's a lot. I hope only a few use it (though I'd guess more than a few do) but a lot do go to see it. Maybe it wasn't done on purpose by Amsterdam but it does still exist.

> Actually, there are government agencies in The
> Netherlands (and also in the US) who help women to
> get out of the "life." To say that the work of a
> prostitute is the same as any other job is
> preposterous! Was your mother a prostitute by any
> chance? I'm asking since according to your
> statements this question wouldn't hurt your
> feelings. And you're the one preaching about
> morality???

So explain why it's so much more evil than other work. Saying that it's "preposterous" and not giving any reasons is not proof.

And no my mother was not a prostitute.

> To say, prostitution hurts no one is a lie. Who
> wants to live next to a brothel? How many
> marriages could have been shored up/saved if it
> weren't for the guy making do with prostitutes
> rather than examining his own flaws? I don't know
> and neither do you, although i'm sure you'll
> pretend otherwise.

And again you're not talking about prostitution being evil, Some people who buy knives are murders, doesn't make the Knife company murderers. Prostitution is just an industry like any other, they have good customers and bad. If a man spends his nights drinking in a bar instead of at home with his wife would you say that the alcoholic industry should be illegal for hurting families? or would you say that guy's an asshole and needs to clean up his life for his family? It's not the industry's fault there is bad people.

As for living next to a brothel again not the brothels fault it's that people have a moral problem with it. No one wants to live beside a brothel because they are against it morally and afraid it will corrupt their children. This is a Moral issue, it's your right to say "I don't want to live beside a brothel" because that's just using your Moral judgment to live your life. Use your morals in your life, just keep them out of mine.

> Why am i not surprised? After all, you know TONS
> on Dutch people, TONS of French people, TONS of
> Islamists in China and TONS of other people there
> and with all of whom you have these deep,
> intellectual discussions. Oh, and let's not forget
> the TONS of female Chinese students who readily
> confide in you the most intimate details of their
> sex life. Please, don't expect any of us to ever
> have believed all that nonsense.

I'm sorry you don't have the opportunity or whatever it is that causes you not to travel and meet interesting people from all over but it's not actually a special thing or a rare thing to know people from many many countries when living abroad. I never said TONS, but I do know some French and Dutch people, just like almost every foreigner living in Nanjing knows them. I assumed you knew that it's very common for expats to all meet and hangout together seeing as you grew up abroad.
In Vancouver I spent my time hanging out with drug addicts and prostitutes because I was young and smoked a lot of weed and my one good friend was a Heroin addict, we spent a lot of time in dirty areas of the city because that's where Heroin addicts mostly hang out. Again if you went to Vancouver 8-9 years ago it wouldn't have been surprising either as Vancouver had a massive Heroin problem and East side was full of people hanging out and shooting up (which is why the government opened safe injection sites).
As for the Chinese students, if you don't want to believe you are welcome not to. I talk about my experiences as they relate to topics at hand, you are welcome to dismiss them out of hand because of your own lack of experience in the matter. I understand that it all seems strange but most people I know who have stayed in China for an extended period of time teaching English in Universities have stories about the same as mine.

> Perhaps i would have enjoyed the nasty version.
> You probably changed out of fear of the response i
> would undoubtedly have given it. On what exactly
> do you base the fact that you have the moral upper
> hand??? It reflects merely your usual arrogance. I
> made a bad decision at the level of entering
> prostitution? Wow, what a windbag you are! You
> should re-read your quoted paragraph a few times;
> perhaps then it will dawn on you how pompous it
> sounds.

I changed it because I decided not to start another useless flame war here. Obviously you are trying hard to goad me into one but I'll do my best to address the issue and not insult your family members and such. I didn't fear your response, I feared another two week session of bitching like what I did with OBC.

I never said your bad decision was on the level of prostitution, I said they are both bad decisions, my point was simply people make bad decisions all the time, some bad, some very bad. I don't know why a bad decision like entering the wrong career because of bad times in your life should be allowed to destroy your entire life.

> Btw, i noticed you did a fine job of dodging my
> questions in my response to you calling Obama a
> "bastard." That in itself tells me a great deal
> and confirms what i've always expected.

Sorry again it was a case of misunderstanding my point originally. We were discussing the USA bringing in Health Care for everyone, I called him a bastard for ruining Canadian's ability to go get private care in the USA, I didn't think anyone would actually believe I truly meant he's a bastard, obviously the USA should be free to bring in whatever health care they want, Canada's Health Care problems are it's own and we need to fix things at home. I don't much care for Obama as I don't like politicians in general but for a politician he actually seems alright. As well I've since found out that I was completely wrong, he's not destroying it at all, he's just adding a new level to the USA Health Care which I'd say seems like a great move.

And while we're on the topic of ignoring things, here's a simple question no one has actually answered yet except on moral grounds. Morality is great for personal decisions but I'd hope people don't want to use Morality to make laws, otherwise whose morality should we use? Mine? Yours? The Pope's?

Question: Why should Prostitution be illegal?

To save some time here's some answers to the easy reasons.
A)Hurts people
Do you also support criminalizing Alcohol and Cigarettes? If not why not? They kill hundreds of thousands of people every year just in the USA alone, they have also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people through drunk driving, violence and, in the case of cigarettes, second hand smoke.

Ruins the Prostitute's life.
Only because we destroy their life for their bad decision by putting them in jail and making them criminals. Why should someone who makes a bad decision that only hurts themselves be punished and have their life ruined because of it?

C)Encourages criminals in the sex trade.
No, it being illegal encourages criminals, putting it in the black market allows the pimps and gangs to control it both of which are notorious for violence against the women and not letting those in the industry get out, hooking them on drugs and threats of violence if they even think of leaving? Legalizing it would subject it to laws and government oversight which, if done thoroughly, could minimize the criminal involvement and allow a better, safer life for the women in the industry.

D)Hurts the Family
It's like claiming sugar hurts families, Sugar can cause health problems as well, too much sugar has been linked to diseases, Now are you calling for Sugar to be illegal? Of course not because it's a person's choice whether or not to eat that sugar. And it's their partner's choice whether or not they will be upset with them for eating it. Eating too much fat hurts the family but it's not fat itself who does it, it's the idiot who doesn't control themselves that hurts the family. Going to a prostitute can hurt your family, but that's the person going's fault. The Prostitute doesn't come to your house and force themselves on you. Personal responsibility for your actions is paramount in a free society.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2009 12:02AM by Uberche.

Uberche:

There is a major sex tourist trade through
> Amsterdam and I'm surprised you are trying to deny
> it. It's not a few of tourists who "walk through
> it" it's a lot. I hope only a few use it (though
> I'd guess more than a few do) but a lot do go to
> see it. Maybe it wasn't done on purpose by
> Amsterdam but it does still exist.

I don't have time to respond to your "book" but make a few comments here and there. Then i'll stop replying to your posts in this thread, as i did in the WWII thread, as Green Hamster did in the ABC thread and as OBC did in numerous threads. It's not that we concede but ... we do have a life to live and things to do.

Again, the Red Light District is not a major tourist attraction. For Amsterdam, these are the fabulous museums (Rijksmuseum and Van Gogh museums), Anna Frank Huis, Begijnenhof, the Damrak, its canals, its sidewalk cafes and for evening entertainment there are plenty of excellent restaurants featuring numerous cuisines (Indonesian Rijsttafel, French, nouvelle cuisine, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc.) and perhaps most notably its pubs with their relaxed atmosphere.

Since the criminality increased in Amsterdam's District (which coincided with legalizing it!!!), I have never walked through it and many other people do the same. Yes, there are people, often from other countries, exclusively visiting Amsterdam for its District and "Coffeeshops." I've no control over some people's taste.

However, it is not a major tourist attraction and, as i said earlier, Amsterdam has closed a third of the District down and will reduce it further.

So, please stop insisting otherwise, the more so since you have never been there!

Quote:
So explain why it's so much more evil than other
> work. Saying that it's "preposterous" and not
> giving any reasons is not proof.

I have no respect for prostitutes, drug dealers and panhandlers. My sympathies go to people plodding along in minimum-wage jobs for far less money because they want to earn their living in a decent way. I have no respect for prostitution because i see it as a form of rape, i.e. a violation of a woman's body, except the prostitute get paid for it a fair amount. To me, sex is part of love. It's not a commodity! For the same reason i'm appalled by today's western culture that only talks about sex, sex,sex and then is surprised that kids as young as eleven already engage in intercourse.

People don't want brothels in their neighborhood because they don't want to see scantily-clad women soliciting on their street or at windows and the weird traffic these women attract. They don't want to see 35 sleazy customers (average per prostitute per night) entering and leaving the brothel, don't want to see the violent pimps, don't want to hear or see the fights, see the dope dealers and their shenanigans. Many of the prostitutes entered their profession to finance their drug habits. You condone them but then you say later on that it is all a matter of personal responsibility. It sure is! If you have a drug or prostitution problem you should seek help and become a responsible citizen instead of wasting your life away.

Yes, i'm familiar with Vancouver's East Side because whenever i visited Vancouver regularly i would always visit the Chinese bakery in Chinatown and this forced me to see the "heroin district." I'm sure the inhabitants of Chinatown do not appreciate either that their neighborhood has been taken over by those who do not conduct their lives in a responsible, honest fashion.

Quote:
And no my mother was not a prostitute.

I only asked this rotten question because you saw/see no difference between a prostitute and other women.

Quote:
I'm sorry you don't have the opportunity or
> whatever it is that causes you not to travel and
> meet interesting people from all over but it's not
> actually a special thing or a rare thing to know
> people from many many countries when living
> abroad.

This comment is as hilarious as your previous one about you having the moral upper hand.

I've lived in four countries. They also include France and Italy. In France i studied toward my undergraduate degree in French and also worked there. In Italy i worked for a prestigious outfit (no, not the Vatican ) in a professional capacity. I worked there on average 12 hour days and didn't mind because i got paid for it very well.

As to travel, i've seen all but two states of the US, a good chunk of Europe, Mexico Australia and Taiwan. I'm fluent in four languages; used to be fluent in Italian as well but that's now rusty. Also have a graduate degree from a good school in the US and a few professional credentials.

Now, since you claim too be much better travelled than i am, why don't you tell us where you have lived and traveled to??? What are your academic achievements?

Yeah, i bet you have good reason to treat me with so much condescension!

I recall distinctly that one of your arguments in numerous threads for being right was that you knew TONS of people. I always laughed about this. I've lived in The Netherlands 20 years and, despite having family, friends and acquaintances there, i never knew tons of people, neither then or now. I certainly would not use the people i know as a convincing argument on why i would be right. I base mine on my own experience and what i've learned through reading.

One of the problems i have had with many of your posts is that you make broad generalization based on your own, by definition limited, experiences. A few examples: your recent thread on how easy, and hypocrytical, Chinese girls are and just love to jump in the sack with foreigners. As Lovebeside beautifully pointed out, the Chinese girls interested in relationships with foreigners represent only a very small segment of the population and maybe they happen to be the "easy" ones. Just because five dozen expats make claims about the Chinese girls they happen to know, it doesn't say anything about the 100s of millions they don't know! I've heard you conclude that Chinese men weren't as accomplished lovers as Westerns (i dislike talking about sex so i won't repeat the exact wording) because of your girlfriends never having had certain sexual experiences before they met you (you wonderful Casanova!). I don't believe you are a womanizer and suspect therefore that the number of girlfriends you had is less than a dozen. They were probably also rather young and not terribly sophisticated in sex.

If i were Chinese, i would have felt offended many times by some of your comments. And i do so now because you portray yourself as more knowledgeable about my own country and consider yourself more traveled and cosmopolitan than i even though this is obviously false.

Quote:
Canada's Health Care problems are it's own ...

You who love to talk down to people and portray yourself as so superior to everyone else still haven't figured out something basic about your own native language that is particularly important if one teaches that language. I pointed this out in the WWII thread and consider it a big gaffe for anyone who is an English-speaker. We're not talking a rushed typo here. You have never done it correctly. But you always prefer to ignore other people's comments.

I no longer respond to further replies to my previous post as i don't want a flame war either.

As i announced in the opening paragraph, i don't want to take more time on this issue.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2009 08:30PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, the Red Light District is not a major
> tourist attraction. For Amsterdam, these are the
> fabulous museums (Rijksmuseum and Van Gogh
> museums), Anna Frank Huis, Begijnenhof, the
> Damrak, its canals, its sidewalk cafes and for
> evening entertainment there are plenty of
> excellent restaurants featuring numerous cuisines
> (Indonesian Rijsttafel, French, nouvelle cuisine,
> Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc.) and perhaps most
> notably its pubs with their relaxed atmosphere.

Right... it's not a tourist attraction.
>
> Since the criminality increased in Amsterdam's
> District (which coincided with legalizing it!!!),
> I have never walked through it and many other
> people do the same. Yes, there are people, often
> from other countries, exclusively visiting
> Amsterdam for its District and "Coffeeshops." I've
> no control over some people's taste. '

Oh.. so people are attracted to it as tourists... but it's not a tourist attraction.. huh... makes sense... It's not a coffee cup! It's just a cup that is used for coffee!!

> So explain why it's so much more evil than other
> > work. Saying that it's "preposterous" and not
> > giving any reasons is not proof.
>
> I have no respect for prostitutes, drug dealers
> and panhandlers.

Sorry to burst your moral bubble but you respecting someone has nothing to do with the question asked. I don't respect the people who work for Monsanto but their job is still just a normal job.

> My sympathies go to people
> plodding along in minimum-wage jobs for far less
> money because they want to earn their living in a
> decent way. I have no respect for prostitution
> because i see it as a form of rape, i.e. a
> violation of a woman's body, except the prostitute
> get paid for it a fair amount.

Rape... Right... Definitely a form of rape! Except for the whole agreeing to the sex part I guess.


> To me, sex is part
> of love. It's not a commodity! For the same reason
> i'm appalled by today's western culture that only
> talks about sex, sex,sex and then is surprised
> that kids as young as eleven already engage in
> intercourse.

I disagree with sex being only a part of love but I agree with your comments on the culture. Sex is a fun thing to do but it needs better education for our younger people to help them understand why they should be waiting till later to start.

> People don't want brothels in their neighborhood
> because they don't want to see scantily-clad women
> soliciting on their street or at windows and the
> weird traffic these women attract.

So they are welcome to not live there. I'm fine with that.

> They don't want
> to see 35 sleazy customers (average per prostitute
> per night) entering and leaving the brothel, don't
> want to see the violent pimps, don't want to hear
> or see the fights, see the dope dealers and their
> shenanigans.

So legalize it and let the government get these things out of the area. It would take some work but the taxes created by legalizing it could easily allow the city to hire more Police to get rid of those problems. Having it criminalized doesn't get rid of these problems, it makes them worse because you can't go in and get rid of the pimps and drug dealers plus you don't have the added revenue to hire enough police to deal with it.

> Many of the prostitutes entered their
> profession to finance their drug habits. You
> condone them but then you say later on that it is
> all a matter of personal responsibility. It sure
> is! If you have a drug or prostitution problem you
> should seek help and become a responsible citizen
> instead of wasting your life away.

Agreed however it's very hard to seek help when you are viewed as a criminal. If you legalize the industry you can start to deal with the issues that create such problems. Keeping it illegal means you can't deal with them because those involved wont come forward for help.

> Yes, i'm familiar with Vancouver's East Side
> because whenever i visited Vancouver regularly i
> would always visit the Chinese bakery in Chinatown
> and this forced me to see the "heroin district."
> I'm sure the inhabitants of Chinatown do not
> appreciate either that their neighborhood has been
> taken over by those who do not conduct their lives
> in a responsible, honest fashion.

I'm sure they aren't. Which is why Canada provided safe injection sites and, while they didn't quite decriminalize it by law, have essentially decriminalized it to try and offer help to the people. And it's helping, though it's hard with the amount of Heroin that comes in through that port.

> This comment is as hilarious as your previous one
> about you having the moral upper hand.

That's good because they both were meant in jest.

> I've lived in four countries. They also include
> France and Italy. In .....few professional credentials.

Congrats and yet apparently you are still stunned that a Canadian living in China could know French and Dutch people... Why? With all your experience you should know people from all over shouldn't you?

> Now, since you claim too be much better travelled
> than i am, why don't you tell us where you have
> lived and traveled to??? What are your academic
> achievements?

I never claimed to be well traveled I've just never heard of a person who has traveled a lot who was shocked by my knowing people from many different countries...

> Yeah, i bet you have good reason to treat me with
> so much condescension!

I guess because so far in this debate you've been incredibly ignorant and rude to me as well as very condescending yourself. Are you really that surprised by my reaction to your posts so far? The difference between my rudeness and yours is that I freely admit I have been an asshole (though so far in this debate I have been much less, though I do have to admit it's only through revising what I write because in general the first thing I write is usually much more rude to you and your Moral ideals), you on the other hand seem to have this idea that you are not.

> I recall distinctly that one of your arguments in
> numerous threads for being right was that you knew
> TONS of people. I always laughed about this. I've
> lived in The Netherlands 20 years and, despite
> having family, friends and acquaintances there, i
> never knew tons of people, neither then or now. I
> certainly would not use the people i know as a
> convincing argument on why i would be right. I
> base mine on my own experience and what i've
> learned through reading.

I'm sorry to hear you don't have tons of friends. I do. It's really nice! I suggest next time you are traveling you go out and meet more people. People are what make traveling so great in my opinion. I use people's experiences to give examples on life the same way as most people in the world do. My experiences and my friend's experiences can all be used to learn things from, learning from other people's mistakes and victories is not a bad thing... It can help you a lot.

> One of the problems i have had with many of your
> posts is that you make broad generalization based
> on your own, by definition limited, experiences. A
> few examples: your recent thread on how easy, and
> hypocrytical, Chinese girls are and just love to
> jump in the sack with foreigners. As Lovebeside
> beautifully pointed out, the Chinese girls
> interested in relationships with foreigners
> represent only a very small segment of the
> population and maybe they happen to be the "easy"
> ones. Just because five dozen expats make claims
> about the Chinese girls they happen to know, it
> doesn't say anything about the 100s of millions
> they don't know!

I don't know what comments you are talking about as I've been in many discussions about Chinese girls, both defending them and otherwise. Yes I do make blanket statements at times, Sorry if that offends you, I don't mean to say every Chinese girl is easy, I'm saying a large part of them are (some through naivety and some because they are just simply curious) and the Chinese girls most foreigners will meet are. I tend to assume people are smart enough to know that Blanket statements are not really representative of the entire populace, maybe I give people more credit than I should.

> I've heard you conclude that
> Chinese men weren't as accomplished lovers as
> Westerns (i dislike talking about sex so i won't
> repeat the exact wording) because of your
> girlfriends never having had certain sexual
> experiences before they met you (you wonderful
> Casanova!). I don't believe you are a womanizer
> and suspect therefore that the number of
> girlfriends you had is less than a dozen. They
> were probably also rather young and not terribly
> sophisticated in sex.

Not all Chinese men but in general yeah I'd say they are not so accomplished as the same type of man in the West. It's a simple matter of practice and knowledge. Sex Education in missing in China and it hurts their sex life. Obviously some Chinese men are very good at sex, I have one friend who says her boyfriend is great and she has multiple orgasms almost every time. But the average Chinese man and woman doesn't know as much about sex as the average Westerner (Not saying that's always a good or bad thing, just saying). If you have a problem with that statement I suggest you bring it up with the Chinese government and get them to start educating their people about sex and stop telling them retarded stories about how if you have sex a lot you'll die younger (yes that was taught to my ex-girlfriend's PE class in University).

As for my girlfriends, yes under 12 of them and some were younger but I've also dated a 35 year old Chinese women who was very educated about sex through self study. and another women who was 28 and also very knowledgeable.

> If i were Chinese, i would have felt offended many
> times by some of your comments. And i do so now
> because you portray yourself as more knowledgeable
> about my own country and consider yourself more
> traveled and cosmopolitan than i even though this
> is obviously false.

People sometimes get offended by the truth. But it doesn't make it wrong. And I've never claimed to be more knowledgeable about your country. I have no idea what you know or don't know, as well truth is sometimes relative as what you view as bad I might view as not. While someone might view Chinese girls as innocent naive angels who are taken advantage of by the big bad foreigners, someone else might view them as sexual women who know what they want and use foreigners to get it. Are either wrong? No. Are Either right? No.

>
> Canada's Health Care problems are it's own ...
>
> You who love to talk down to people and portray
> yourself as so superior to everyone else still
> haven't figured out something basic about your own
> native language that is particularly important if
> one teaches that language. I pointed this out in
> the WWII thread and consider it a big gaffe for
> anyone who is an English-speaker. We're not
> talking a rushed typo here. You have never done it
> correctly. But you always prefer to ignore other
> people's comments.

Yes I know I have problems with that and I have problems with than/then, working on both. Congrats you found my weakness! Grammar.

Quote:
Oh.. so people are attracted to it as tourists...
> but it's not a tourist attraction.. huh... makes
> sense... It's not a coffee cup! It's just a cup
> that is used for coffee!!

Dutch tourism outfits do not promote the Red-Light District as a tourist attraction. The great majority of tourists do not come to The Netherlands for the prostitution. A supermarket or a department store will attract more traffic in a year than the District but are not considered tourist attractions either. It's all semantics but you never give up because, in your mind, you have to be right.

Quote:
Rape... Right... Definitely a form of rape! Except
> for the whole agreeing to the sex part I guess.

I knew that comparing it to rape was a bad choice of words but it is a violation of a woman's body. Women who do this to make an easy buck must be devoid of self-esteem.

Quote:
So legalize it and let the government get these
> things out of the area. It would take some work
> but the taxes created by legalizing it could
> easily allow the city to hire more Police to get
> rid of those problems. Having it criminalized
> doesn't get rid of these problems, it makes them
> worse because you can't go in and get rid of the
> pimps and drug dealers plus you don't have the
> added revenue to hire enough police to deal with
> it.

I have already said three times that in Amsterdam the problems became worse after legalization and the city has reduced the size of the district!!!

Quote:
Agreed however it's very hard to seek help when
> you are viewed as a criminal.

This is true when you are in the process of committing this criminal act. But there are services available to help you stop this lifestyle.

Quote:
Congrats and yet apparently you are still stunned
> that a Canadian living in China could know French
> and Dutch people... Why? With all your experience
> you should know people from all over shouldn't
> you? ... I've just
> never heard of a person who has traveled a lot who
> was shocked by my knowing people from many
> different countries...

I'm not stunned at all; i have known foreigners wherever i've lived as well. But you always take this position that your knowing tons of people sort of makes you an expert on whatever subject you were discussing in a thread. Moreover, we never know anything about these anonymous people, what their education level is, what their life/work experiences are. Why always drag these people into the conversations (i'm not going to dig up old, lengthy threads to show this to you).

Quote:
I guess because so far in this debate you've been
> incredibly ignorant and rude to me as well ... I'm sorry to hear you don't have tons of friends. I do. It's really nice!

You have a habit of ending long threads by calling people such words. I certainly haven't enjoyed the tone of this conversation and admit having contributed to it. I have enjoyed far more the friendly and respectful discussions in other forums. And i'll spend more time there from now on. I have known many people in various settings but i have never had more than 2-3 truly good friends at any one time. I value friendship highly and being superficially acquainted with many people doesn't do much for me. That's how i live my life and i don't see why it is a reason to feel sorry for me. Yes, from friends i can learn indeed but the façade offered by acquaintances and people you only know because of work/school/certain activities isn't particularly informative to me. It sounds my approach to life is more qualitative and yours more quantitative.

Quote:
I tend to assume people
> are smart enough to know that Blanket statements
> are not really representative of the entire
> populace, maybe I give people more credit than I
> should.

And you are not rude?


I've read the original post in this thread a few more times in the last couple of days. You started this thread for no other apparent reason than to bash China. If you had been more respectful toward the country where you've lived rather happily for the past six years you'd have given details about how the Chinese government is actually carrying out this program (some of their actions may be good, others might need to be improved, etc.) Their plan certainly will not promote homosexuality! But it sounds that if China does something it must be automatically wrong in your book and doesn't need elaboration.

Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dutch tourism outfits do not promote the Red-Light
> District as a tourist attraction. The great
> majority of tourists do not come to The
> Netherlands for the prostitution. A supermarket or
> a department store will attract more traffic in a
> year than the District but are not considered
> tourist attractions either. It's all semantics but
> you never give up because, in your mind, you have
> to be right.

Yeah, sometimes I'm petty and foolish about last words and semantics in threads. I admit that, hopefully you can too as you are the one who claimed you wouldn't take part in this thread again. I'm sure you were serious about it too, right up until you read my outrageous answer that was so clearly not true because, in your mind, you have to be right.

I'd say the tourist attraction issue is a case of differences in definition. You seem to feel (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's not, because it isn't promoted as such, I'd personally say a Tourist attaction is anything that attracts tourists to go there regardless of promotion. In our own definitions we are both right it seems. You may not agree with my definition but hopefully you can see that it is a valid definition of the term Tourist Attraction and as such we are both right and wrong at the same time.

> I knew that comparing it to rape was a bad choice
> of words but it is a violation of a woman's body.
> Women who do this to make an easy buck must be
> devoid of self-esteem.

Or of a different moral outlook than you. Female Food Tasters could claim their job involved a violation of their body. Inserting things they don't really want into their bodies. And why do they do it? Money. The problem for you seems to be that it involves the Vagina which you consider sacred or off limits. In fact for the most part I agree and if I had a vagina I wouldn't be letting men use it for money, hence my not being on the street selling my ass to homosexuals and the "curious". However if someone is volunteering the use of their vagina and sexual expertise than I would say that's their right as a free person. When you start claiming the right to say what can and can't go into another persons body where does it stop? Sex? Drugs? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Fat? Sugar?

It's a slippery slope... New York City has banned Trans-Fats from their city. I try to limit my intake of Trans-fat but making it illegal for others to consume, in my opinion, is a step in the wrong direction. Raise their insurance rates if they are out of shape but if they want to pay the higher rates with the trade off being fatty goodness than why should we have the right to tell them no? Instead of just banning what people can and can't do, it seems to me, a better alternative would be educating people as to WHY they should stop doing these things. Trans-Fats are terrible for you and if told exactly what they are doing to their bodies I think most people who stop eating them, or at least limit their intakes.

> I have already said three times that in Amsterdam
> the problems became worse after legalization and
> the city has reduced the size of the district!!!

They took an industry that used to be spread out over a huge area and condensed it into a small district of one city... and then people wonder why it got worse. If you want to legalize it you do so everywhere and you start a VERY strict campaign to check the businesses for criminal activity. Check the legal status of every girl working and background checks for girls and owners/investors in the area. Either these things aren't being done in Amsterdam or there is a flaw in the system that needs to be worked out. Sending the entire industry back to Black Market isn't going to help anything except it will spread the problems out more so on paper it looks like they've gone away, but the women will still be being bought, sold, beaten and killed, luckily we can just ignore it because they are just prostitutes...
It's what I call a Political Solution. On paper the problem goes away but it doesn't actually solve anything for those involved. But the politicians don't care as long as their voters keep voting for them.
In fact what I would suggest as a solution, if they honestly can't get the criminal element out of it, which seems to be what you are saying, is Government control of the industry. Make the government into the pimps, they control who can work and for how much, they do the tests to make sure it's kept clean. Turn the prostitute into a government worker completely destroying the ability of criminal elements to make the sex trade work. The profits go to the country ensuring plenty of money for Police enforcement with money left over for improving other sectors.

> This is true when you are in the process of
> committing this criminal act. But there are
> services available to help you stop this
> lifestyle.

And how do you stop it when many of them are drug addicts (meaning they can't stop it), others are there illegally and fearful of what will happen after. Not to mention that some of these girls are being used as essentially slaves because of the criminal element that has been allowed to control the industry so they don't have the money or ability to stop selling their bodies. It's a vicious circle, not sure if you've ever done any work with drug addicts but it's not as easy as just saying "We have the services in place to deal with them if they don't want to do it anymore".

> I'm not stunned at all; i have known foreigners
> wherever i've lived as well. But you always take
> this position that your knowing tons of people
> sort of makes you an expert on whatever subject
> you were discussing in a thread. Moreover, we
> never know anything about these anonymous people,
> what their education level is, what their
> life/work experiences are. Why always drag these
> people into the conversations (i'm not going to
> dig up old, lengthy threads to show this to you).

Because their experiences relate. This is the internet, I could, if I wanted to be disingenuous, just give these things as my own, how would you know either way? you seem to feel that experiences that are my own are somehow more honest than others but, lets be blunt here, you have NO idea who I am. For all you know I could be a CIA operative hired to make China look bad as OBC claimed. I could also be a Chinese citizen here to have fun and laugh at the angry foreigners. I have no idea who you are either. Whether you say your friend saw something or you say You saw something, it's the same. Some random person on the internet saw something. If you choose not to believe what I or people I know have done and seen that's your right. Just be honest enough to accept that it's all the same.

Oh and there's very little i would consider myself an expert on, but there is lots of things I can talk about. There are plenty of threads I don't talk on because I have no idea about the topic. Most of the threads I talk on are about China and Chinese people and that's one thing that i do know a lot about, wouldn't say I'm an expert but still pretty knowledgeable. I don't say that as bragging, it's nothing surprising, I've lived here 6 years and done my best to learn all I can about it so it makes sense I do have a lot of stories and experiences. If this was a forum about Cambodia I'd have next to nothing to talk about.

> You have a habit of ending long threads by calling
> people such words.

Because people tend to tell me I'm very rude at the end of long threads where we disagreed, all the while ignoring the fact that they were just as rude to me in the thread. If people want to play the poor me card to end a thread they better be sure they haven't been just as rude the entire time or I will tell them they are too. The difference, in my opinion, is that I'm honest about it, I try to not be rude but sometimes I am. If you want an apology, I'm sorry I was rude and a dick in this thread, threads about morality tend to raise tempers and rudeness often.

> I have known many people in various settings
> but i have never had more than 2-3 truly good
> friends at any one time. I value friendship highly
> and being superficially acquainted with many
> people doesn't do much for me. That's how i live
> my life and i don't see why it is a reason to feel
> sorry for me. Yes, from friends i can learn indeed
> but the façade offered by acquaintances and
> people you only know because of
> work/school/certain activities isn't particularly
> informative to me. It sounds my approach to life
> is more qualitative and yours more quantitative.

I misunderstood your meaning when you were talking about that it's strange that I know so many people. But I understand what you meant now. Like you I have very few good friends to be honest (always have, enjoy a few very good friends as opposed to lots of good friends) but I do have lots of distant friends because living here kind of necessitates it as people come and go so often you can't make good friends with many and if you put all your time in with 2-3 people and one or two goes home, what then? But it's cool as I get to meet a lot of people and experience a lot and I have a number of good friends here now who are also here long term.

> And you are not rude?

I am very sarcastic and can be very rude and assholish at times. I've stated this many times.

> I've read the original post in this thread a few
> more times in the last couple of days. You started
> this thread for no other apparent reason than to
> bash China.

I started it for exactly what it became, to debate whether or not Prostitution should be illegal. As well I wanted to point out the insanity of their policies.

> If you had been more respectful toward
> the country where you've lived rather happily for
> the past six years you'd have given details about
> how the Chinese government is actually carrying
> out this program (some of their actions may be
> good, others might need to be improved, etc.)

So it's my fault people are too lazy to learn things for themselves? I presented an article, hopefully people read it and used it as a springboard to more research. Those who didn't research what the government is doing need to take responsibility for their own inaction. Most of these type of debates that I take part in I'm not here to convince you, just to present the other side of the argument which I believe in. They are also great places to push me to learn more, when someone gives me a statement, like the guy who claimed the USA has tons of anti-Chinese riots, I go and research it learning more in the process. Sometimes it changes what I believe sometimes it doesn't, but almost always by the end of a thread my views are at least somewhat changed. If you had asked me about Amsterdam's Prostitution at the beginning I would have claimed it was fine as it was, after your comments i went and studied it more and now i can see it has serious problems, but I still don't think the answer to them is pushing the entire industry into the gutter and further into the hands of the criminals.

> Their plan certainly will not promote
> homosexuality! But it sounds that if China does
> something it must be automatically wrong in your
> book and doesn't need elaboration.

Not at all. But people, myself included, tend to post more negative articles than positive. Not just about China but in regards to all countries. This is a forum about China so China is the focus here. If we were at a Canadian forum talking I promise you you'd be considering me a traitor to Canada because I don't like what the articles say, I've been told I hate all sorts of countries that I in no way hate because I'm critical of their governments. The truth though is that I view most countries as the same, the governments are all pricks who screw over their citizens and the people are mostly all good people who do bad things sometimes.

People often ask me why I hate *insert country*, I don't hate *insert country*, I hate *insert country*'s government, the people of *insert country* are mostly friendly nice people.

Uberche Wrote:

Quote:
When you start claiming the right to say what can
> and can't go into another persons body where does
> it stop? Sex? Drugs? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Fat?
> Sugar?

You realize, of course, that the things you list are not of equal moral value. The only one that is a moral issue is prostitution. To me, the bimbo who also lives off her body and gets jewelry from one Joe, luxury vacations from another, and a fur coat from yet another, is also a prostitute but she would never call herself such. The difference with her and the official ones is that she’s manipulative and probably bright enough to re-package herself and jump into marriage before her looks totally fade. The “real” ones forsake their future and a life of normality (however you want to define such nowadays) and respectability. And all this sacrifice for short-term money (whether to finance a drug habit or not). No matter how much she straightens herself out, I cannot conceive any man being in love with her and managing to overlook the fact that thousands of men have treaded on/in the same territory he felt any desire for. Nor do I believe such women can view sex, love, and men in a way other women do. They have come across so many bad guys wanting to harm them, have experienced so much violence from pimps, have become so bored and turned off by sex, have become so used to making good money that they (in general) squander away, that their post-prostitution life is likely to be misery, loneliness and perhaps also new addictions. Yes, a few upon retirement become advocates for rights for prostitutes and by doing so,live a productive, useful life. But those are only a few.

Actually, the district in Amsterdam was never all that big. The houses that the City has bought up have been converted to artist studios and gallery space. I think it is a good move. Also, the country is quite small and crowded; space has always been at a premium. If say you want fewer tourists, you are not going to build more hotels. So, by reducing the number of rooms where prostitutes can ply their trade, you also reduce the overall traffic.

Like you, I’ve wondered why the government doesn’t do more about the prostitutes who are there illegally, particularly the ones trafficked (whom I consider as victims of a crime and for whom I only feel empathy). I remember having seen a documentary on Dutch TV about fifteen years ago that mentioned the problem of lots of women from Central America having been lured to Amsterdam on the promise of making good money working in restaurants. The brothels are just regular houses; the illegal prostitutes seldom leave these places. Maybe the Dutch police can’t obtain warrants to raid these places. (I’m not that familiar with the finer points of Dutch law anymore.) Maybe they round up the illegal ones and deportation procedures are lengthy affairs. They may still be detained while new ones have taken their place. I honestly don’t know.

Because these women are often illegal, they may not be registered as prostitutes either and therefore escape the routine health check-ups. I don’t know for sure either.


As to the fantasy Internet persona, I’m aware of the allure of the Internet for some to pretend to be somebody. Such people talk big but then you read their poorly written gibberish and realize that things don’t compute. You do get a sense of people. I also have a golden memory for what people say months ago, so if they change their tune, I know it (Dammit, I wish my memory was as fantastic for Chinese characters instead!!!). You do get a sense whether someone is closer to 35-40 than to 20-25, whether they are well educated or barely got out of high school. It’s funny I’m not into social networking and have visited only a few forums on a regular basis. But from two, I’ve met a number of members in real life (after more personal emails) and they were exactly what they seemed to be on the net. Btw, none of these involved Online Dating with which I’ve never bothered. So, it does make a difference to speak from personal experiences or to say, “I’ve a good friend who categorically states …” This good friend may not be much of a friend and may be a complete jerk. But about the poster I have a sense.

Quote:
So it's my fault people are too lazy to learn things for themselves? I presented an article, hopefully people read it and used it as a springboard to more research.

It’s all water on the bridge now but you could have presented it with more detail that would have opened a more wholesome debate. Actually, if I strongly disagree or am interested in a topic, I’ll do some reading as well. My views on Xinjiang changed quite a bit because I did more digging. In fact, I posted links to a number of excellent articles (one on the logistics and control over Central Asia’s oil) but I doubt anyone read them. I’ve also spent a number of hours reading up on the Global Power Elite and came up with a number of books by respectable academics and would have liked to have gotten OBC’s recommendation on what book to read.

Quote:
But people, myself included, tend to post more negative articles than positive. Not just about China but in regards to all countries.

The negativity here is exactly what I dislike. I’d prefer more balance and more respectful interaction. If you call me ignorant and an idiot, I’ll repay in kind (as you know, I’m quite capable of it). If you (or anyone else) says, “you make a few valid points, but I strongly disagree with your stance on blablabla” then both people have the opportunity to learn from the discussion without feeling a need for endless posts (as we’ve been doing here) to defend themselves.

Have a good Sunday!

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2009 10:25PM by Tangerine.

Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You realize, of course, that the things you list
> are not of equal moral value. The only one that is
> a moral issue is prostitution.

That's the only one that is a moral issue to you. There are people who believe drinking is a sin and Morally wrong. Should they be allowed to tell you not to drink alcohol? And if you want to only talk about moral issues how about dancing with a person of the opposite sex? Some religions teach that dancing in a exciting fashion together is morally wrong. Or masturbation, should Masturbation be made illegal because people think it's morally wrong?

> To me, the bimbo
> who also lives off her body and gets jewelry from
> one Joe, luxury vacations from another, and a fur
> coat from yet another, is also a prostitute but
> she would never call herself such.

I agree, and to show how much of an asshole I am, I once told my friend he was dating a prostitute because his girlfriend would withhold sex if he didn't buy her gifts and give her an allowance. Usually I'm not so blunt in real life but the division between prostitute and "girlfriend who withholds sex unless she gets gifts and money" has always pissed me off. This is a guy who has on many occasions said he'd never go to a prostitute, but he was happily paying for sex anyway (he said it wasn't so bad because she wasn't having so many partners, but who knows what she was doing before they met...)

> No matter how much she straightens
> herself out, I cannot conceive any man being in
> love with her and managing to overlook the fact
> that thousands of men have treaded on/in the same
> territory he felt any desire for.

But again that's your morality. Personally I would find it very hard if not impossible but I know a couple prostitutes in Vancouver who had boyfriends, very few though in comparison. (and yeah I know, people I know again, if you don't want to believe it you are welcome not to).

> Nor do I believe
> such women can view sex, love, and men in a way
> other women do. They have come across so many bad
> guys wanting to harm them, have experienced so
> much violence from pimps, have become so bored and
> turned off by sex, have become so used to making
> good money that they (in general) squander away,
> that their post-prostitution life is likely to be
> misery, loneliness and perhaps also new
> addictions. Yes, a few upon retirement become
> advocates for rights for prostitutes and by doing
> so,live a productive, useful life. But those are
> only a few.

In fact a lot of those I knew were lesbians or Bi and had much more stable relationships with women than men. Seems women were usually more understanding to their past, not to mention that a lot of them have had serious issues with men in the past...

> Like you, I’ve wondered why the government
> doesn’t do more about the prostitutes who are
> there illegally, particularly the ones trafficked
> (whom I consider as victims of a crime and for
> whom I only feel empathy). I remember having seen
> a documentary on Dutch TV about fifteen years ago
> that mentioned the problem of lots of women from
> Central America having been lured to Amsterdam on
> the promise of making good money working in
> restaurants. The brothels are just regular houses;
> the illegal prostitutes seldom leave these places.
> Maybe the Dutch police can’t obtain warrants to
> raid these places. (I’m not that familiar with
> the finer points of Dutch law anymore.) Maybe they
> round up the illegal ones and deportation
> procedures are lengthy affairs. They may still be
> detained while new ones have taken their place. I
> honestly don’t know.
>
> Because these women are often illegal, they may
> not be registered as prostitutes either and
> therefore escape the routine health check-ups. I
> don’t know for sure either.

Yeah it's a bit mystifying, I think if you are going to legalize such an industry you cannot treat it like a normal industry with deregulation and the normal rules. The government needs to be MUCH more involved and if not running it than at the very least allowed free access to the house where it takes place to check on conditions...

> As to the fantasy Internet persona, I’m aware of
> the allure of the Internet for some to pretend to
> be somebody. Such people talk big but then you
> read their poorly written gibberish and realize
> that things don’t compute. You do get a sense of
> people. I also have a golden memory for what
> people say months ago, so if they change their
> tune, I know it (Dammit, I wish my memory was as
> fantastic for Chinese characters instead!!!). You
> do get a sense whether someone is closer to 35-40
> than to 20-25, whether they are well educated or
> barely got out of high school. It’s funny I’m
> not into social networking and have visited only a
> few forums on a regular basis. But from two,
> I’ve met a number of members in real life (after
> more personal emails) and they were exactly what
> they seemed to be on the net. Btw, none of these
> involved Online Dating with which I’ve never
> bothered. So, it does make a difference to speak
> from personal experiences or to say, “I’ve a
> good friend who categorically states …” This
> good friend may not be much of a friend and may be
> a complete jerk. But about the poster I have a
> sense.

I've heard people say that but I've also had people on forums (especially political it seems) who turn out to be very different than one would think. I used to be involved with one over at www.gnn.tv that was full of people who all seemed pretty cool (this was 6 years ago, I still go back to check it out but it's mostly full of 9/11 Truthers now who are more than a bit nutty) but a couple it turned out were weirdos who made multiple personalities and such... since that place I'm much more careful about who I trust online. But I agree that on a forum like this most people are usually pretty honest about themselves... you never know though.

> It’s all water on the bridge now but you could
> have presented it with more detail that would have
> opened a more wholesome debate. Actually, if I
> strongly disagree or am interested in a topic,
> I’ll do some reading as well. My views on
> Xinjiang changed quite a bit because I did more
> digging. In fact, I posted links to a number of
> excellent articles (one on the logistics and
> control over Central Asia’s oil) but I doubt
> anyone read them. I’ve also spent a number of
> hours reading up on the Global Power Elite and
> came up with a number of books by respectable
> academics and would have liked to have gotten
> OBC’s recommendation on what book to read.

You're right, I could have written more, I was more hoping to stimulate discussion and just see where it led. I think part of it is my way of teaching in which I try not to tell my students my thoughts on an issue till later because I'd rather they had a discussion on their own first, otherwise a lot of them will just parrot what I've said because that's how you get good grades in China usually. My teaching infects all my life, two years ago I went home and my Aunt said that I talk to her like she's 8 years old which is just from talking to my students all the time in slow clear English...

> The negativity here is exactly what I dislike.
> I’d prefer more balance and more respectful
> interaction. If you call me ignorant and an idiot,
> I’ll repay in kind (as you know, I’m quite
> capable of it). If you (or anyone else) says,
> “you make a few valid points, but I strongly
> disagree with your stance on blablabla” then
> both people have the opportunity to learn from the
> discussion without feeling a need for endless
> posts (as we’ve been doing here) to defend
> themselves.

But the problem is more News stories are negative. As well if someone posts something positive what kind of response does it get? "Hurray for China!" thread over. Negative articles usually give much more chance for response from people.

And before you try to make it seem like you were just answering in kind during this thread, look at your thread recap. You can't honestly think your recap was an unbiased look at what was said, you completely ignored most of my points and tried to make me look like I was just trying to promote prostitution. I'm in no way trying to promote prostitution, just ways to clean up the industry so that fewer women are hurt by it. You may not agree with legalizing it but I think we'd both be happy if the governments worked at taking the criminals out of the workings so the women, whether you agree with their job or not, weren't being hurt by it so much.

I'm not trying to say it's all your fault, quite obviously my response was less than friendly and very condescending at the end. We both have a part in how the other person responds to us, I'll try to be more civil if you will.

Well, i apologize for some of the comments i have made in this thread. What infuriated me was your "Bastard Obama" comment at another thread. As far as politicians go, he's a good man and he inherited an extraordinary mess. Yet, he gets criticized for such nonsense: his birth certificate, the jeans he wore to a casual events, the bare arms of his wife and on and on, ad nauseam.

What i hoped to convey was that if a small, prosperous country like The Netherlands has run into serious problems by legalizing prostitution, then the offered recipe to legalize a rampant sex industry for a huge, still developing, country like China is likely to backfire even more.

The problem i have with this forum is that most of it is juvenile and threads have a tendency to run off-topic. Even the Chinese Culture and History forums deals little with China's glorious 5,000 year past but with trivial subjects. There's a thread there that talks about ... hairstyles. This got 22,000 views. More important subjects hardly get any attention. I'd love to learn more about the current art scene in China, discussions about new painters, respected writers and their work and so on. Ajin posted lovely images about traditional dress styles; I was the only one who left a comment. The main diet at this forum is how to chase someone from the opposite sex and these most peculiar threads by people who claim extraordinary love for someone they barely know or who seems to exist only in the poster's imagination And you're surprised that there are so few people in my life?!

Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, i apologize for some of the comments i have
> made in this thread. What infuriated me was your
> "Bastard Obama" comment at another thread. As far
> as politicians go, he's a good man and he
> inherited an extraordinary mess. Yet, he gets
> criticized for such nonsense: his birth
> certificate, the jeans he wore to a casual events,
> the bare arms of his wife and on and on, ad
> nauseam.

Which is a little funny just because it was entirely a joke. In fact as far as Politicians go I kinda like Obama. And the other day I heard his head of Health Care's future plans and it actually made me respect him a little. (As far as politicians go me respecting one of them is almost unheard of so I don't mean that in a bad way at all) He actually seems decent and fairly honest (as much as any politician can be) and just trying to do right which is nice after Bush's absolutely horrid facade of the Golly Gee Shucks I'm just a Cowboy bullshit...

> What i hoped to convey was that if a small,
> prosperous country like The Netherlands has run
> into serious problems by legalizing prostitution,
> then the offered recipe to legalize a rampant sex
> industry for a huge, still developing, country
> like China is likely to backfire even more.

I agree it probably wouldn't help too much with most of the problems, but I don't think it would hurt any either. It's already so out here that it might as well be legalized. I hope it would help clean up the disease a bit though... but probably not with the level of corruption that exists as County levels here... Mostly I was just sick of listening to the bullshit ideas about "We're going to crack down on Prostitution!" from the government when the government members are the ones who are constantly getting caught frequenting the brothels, the poor workers aren't keeping these expensive KTV bars a float, they can't afford to pay 1000+ rmb to have sex with a worker for one night...

> The problem i have with this forum is that most of
> it is juvenile and threads have a tendency to run
> off-topic. Even the Chinese Culture and History
> forums deals little with China's glorious 5,000
> year past but with trivial subjects. There's a
> thread there that talks about ... hairstyles. This
> got 22,000 views. More important subjects hardly
> get any attention. I'd love to learn more about
> the current art scene in China, discussions about
> new painters, respected writers and their work and
> so on. Ajin posted lovely images about traditional
> dress styles; I was the only one who left a
> comment. The main diet at this forum is how to
> chase someone from the opposite sex and these most
> peculiar threads by people who claim extraordinary
> love for someone they barely know or who seems to
> exist only in the poster's imagination And
> you're surprised that there are so few people in
> my life?!

haha yeah that seems fairly representative of life though really (and sadly)... I know VERY few foreigners who are learning much about China while here, most are partying and drinking and fucking naive girls. Especially of the age that use the internet Message boards a lot... This is why, I think, people get the feeling like I think I'm so knowledgeable about things, it's not that I'm so clever, it's that A)I've been here so damn long and B ) the questions are all the same... i want to tell the moderator to just sticky a thread about Chinese girls in the forum explaining they aren't all conservative house wives waiting for foreigners to come rescue them except I doubt it would help because everyone would just ignore it and ask what the best way to get a Chinese girl to like them is anyway...