Okay, I really hope you guys can give me some insight here.

Why do most Chinese customers (in stores, restaurants, etc.) refuse to acknowledge greetings and statements from servers, shopkeepers, etc. SO many times, in many cities across China I see Chinese people enter a store or restaurant to be greeted with a "huaning guaning ______ fan dian" or whatever they say when you enter into an extablishment, and the customer just walks silently by??? what the F??! How difficult is it to say nihao, or something like that? Also, often when a server brings food to the table they will say something like "here you are", and the customer almost never says thank you or even acknowledges their presence. It's the same story when leaving an establishment, the employees give a parting "zouhao" and the customers just walk out silently, no bye bye, nothing.

In America, we always acknowlege the employees, say hello, thank our servers (for everything, filling up water, bringing food...), and say goodbye when we leave a store even if we didn't buy anything.

To me, the Chinese way seems incredibly rude, and actually very sad. I don't understand this though I have some theories....I wonder if it is a way for higher class Chinese (i.e., the customer) to announce that they are better than the employee (i.e., lower class) by refusing to converse with them. If that is the case, then that is even more sad.

Hope you guys can give me some useful feedback here, it just seems like such a shitty way to treat another person.

That is one of the first major cultural differences I noticed when I came here, and I still do not totally understand it. I have asked my friends about it, and they seem perplexed that I even notice it. The attitude, both in the small and big cities, seems to be "that is their job, why should I be nice to them"? I think it is the result of several small factors added together. The population size here, even in the "small" cities, leads to an anonymous social existence. The people here are just one in a million, and that includes the employees, and without a personal identity to each other, maybe it is common to just ignore and be ignored. The fact that the employees give greetings and say goodbye is probably due to the fact that they are trained and paid to do so. If the shoe was on the other foot, or when they are the ones shopping, they probably ignore the other workers just the same. It might also have to do with the focus on family and a small circle of friends here, meaning that many Chinese do not concern themselves with a stranger, and they do not feel it is necessary to give the illusion of caring. I do not think it has to do with class, at least in modern China, because in many instances I have been with a person of low class at a "high-class" business, and this still happens even though the customer knows that they are not better than the employee, who sometimes happens to be the boss. I also would like to understand this issue better, but I think maybe we are making it into something bigger and more complex than it is. I think it is just "the way it is" for no really significant reason. It might just be a cultural difference that cannot be, and does not need to be, understood. When I am in this situation, I say "hello, please, thanks, bye" and make small talk because that is what I am used to, but I do not bother my companion to do the same. It is like the issue of many Chinese never saying "I love you" directly to their mother and father. It might seem so natural to us, but to them it is so strange, and to try to change that because we think it should be different is not very effective or tolerant. Good point and good question!

Asked my gf and she said "becuase...." that was about it. I think it's to do with face and standing. Servers are the lowest so you don't bother with them unless you want something or you want to complain about something. Chinese always find it strange when I talk tot he servers, which I do a lot because they are always so happy to talk to someone.

What you've both said makes sense. And I guess I'm not really out to change the behaviour, but it just seems terribly rude. I think if someone treated me like that if I was in a service position back in the states I would consider them a total prick, treat them like dirt, and be as wholly uncooperative as I could be if they had a problem/complaint...however, that's obviously a huge difference here, here if you do that probably you lose your job to the million other people waiting to fill your shoes. Also, maybe there's a difference in the way the employee interprets the behaviour, maybe they don't take as much offense to it as I would. Still, some common courtesy for your fellow human beings seems like something that should cross all cultural boundaries, but seems to be seriously lacking in this case.

Haha - you know, on numerous occasions, I have chosen to separate myself from my shopping/eating companion because they treat the employees in such a way that I am afraid of retribution (spitting in the food, overcharging, purposefully slow service, etc...) or I just feel sorry for the worker and want to send the message that I am not "with" my friend in how they treat employees. As far as "common courtesy", have you noticed that in some countries, despite putting on a front of peace and harmony, common courtesy as some cultures view it is "seriously lacking" to the point I'd say "nonexistent"? A public show of politeness and formality to "important" people is one thing, but you can get a more accurate view of a society's level of courtesy and respect for others by observing how they treat each other and those of a "lower" position when no one else is paying attention or in common situations.

As a Chinese born American I am definitely not the guy to speak on this, but I think maybe xietingfeng had a point when the comparison was made to saying "I love you." Maybe, there is difficulty expressing feelings.

Would be nice to hear from some of the luminaries of these forums (ahem, ahem, Astroboy, Kurt...Uberche's weighed in, people are going to think you're slacking

Just had another thought!!!! You know in the west, particularly in America, it is very common, perhaps almost standard for some service positions, that the salary is highly dependent on tips and commission from sales. More importantly, it has been this way for several years, at least one or two generations. In combination with this, people in these positions are not usually looked down upon (except for car salespersons, haha) because many are young and working through high school or college, or it is just a second job, or in some cases, their annual salary is higher than that of teachers, policemen, and other "respected" positions. So, often people in service jobs are often thought of as either hard-working or ambitious, or just "trying to make ends meet." Anyway - combine these and you get a totally different "service worker-customer culture" from that in other countries. Service workers for years have learned that the better you treat your customers, the more successful you will be, and after decades of good customer service (something either still lacking or just beginning in most parts of China) the customers have learned to be polite and friendly towards service workers at the same time. Customers in the USA for example either have family or good friends that work in these areas, or have done so themselves. If this is not the case, either through our mother and father's discipline when we were young and acted rudely towards such people or seeing enough news stories of disgruntled workers doing terrible things to customers, even if we do not respect or admire such workers, we have learned that the best option is to treat them with kindness and respect anyway. I would also like to state that although I agree with the poster that this seems very prevalent in China, I have seen people of all races in different countries act in this way. So, although there is some truth to this in my opinion, this is still just a generalization which may or may not be true to each individual.

In Chinese societies, we always feel service providers are PAID to do their job, say the greetings, smile etc. By nature, some of these workers may not even be friendly people, for eg they may not even greet their parents at home. But at work, they are PAID to act like robots. So when a robot greets you, would u respond?

I have been out with businessmen and they act incredibly cold towards service providers. It's like acknowledging their existence will somehow bring them a few levels down to a lower class. So most of these businessmen treat them like they are invisible (unless it happens to be a sweet young thing).

Service providers are also not used to guests talking to them. Once I asked a waitress where she's from, how she's coping with work etc - she was actually taken aback, took a few glances behind to check where her supervisor was and promptly ran away.

I know it looks incredibly sad in the eyes of foreigners. Personally, I do look at service providers in the eye, smile back or acknowledge with a simple nod of the head. But I'm a minority. It all boils down to upbringing and manners taught from young.

I had to laugh when I read your reply Astroboy because I have often had the same experience when trying to make simple or cordial conversation with service workers. The first few times I thought I did something wrong or that they didn't speak English OR Chinese. I was a bit bewildered by their actions such as running away, looking down, blank stares, laughter, and most commonly no answer at all. I think your point about it coming down to a matter of upbringing and manners is very valid and might be the best explanation. I am glad you are one of the exceptions! Maybe all of the "exceptions" along with a changing perception towards service workers might slowly bring about a change. I DO feel it is a little sad, and in fact it makes me feel a mix of anger and disgust when someone, Chinese or foreigner, who normally acts rudely toward most workers goes out of their way to be polite to a sweet young thing, as you put it. How pathetic and transparent is that?

Thanks for all your responses guys and gals! Not sure if we really managed to figure out an answer, but glad to know that it is not just foreigners who find this phenomenon as strange, and you gave me a lot to consider. What a helpful forum!

Glad that u learned something from here. U have to understand that 90% of the Chinese u meet on the streets come from a "peasant" background - including the rich businessmen and factory owners (the nouveau riche).

In a dog-eat-dog world where survival of the fittest and bread-and-butter issues are top priorities, good manners count for nuts in China.

Once u accept that fact, you will do fine.

On a side note:
Where are all the educated Chinese, the social elites, the scholars, the middle-class etc? They are mostly in Taiwan, HK or have emigrated overseas. U may find some still in BJ, Shanghai, Guangzhou etc. But u will rarely encounter them on the streets in China.

You know why? because Chinese society traditionally do not treat human being with respect.... people do not feel that they born to be equal, no constitution rights to protect basic human rights. That’s why you see Coal mine death toll is more than IED or road side bombers.

Chinese never care about others human, they just care about themselves. And I remember back in my childhood in China, junior highschool. We had this geographic textbook talked about U.S society, everyone thinks it’s wrong to treat black badly, but nobody wanna blacks in their neighbourhood.

It’s exactly same things, down earth discrimination, based on location, income level, physical appearance.

Canuck Wrote:
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> Chinese never care about others human, they just
> care about themselves.

And their family.

I like it when I walk into a restaurant and hear a chinese person order and say to the waiter something like 快点儿 (quickly) afterwards. " I want a hamburger and be quick about it!" if you did that in a western country restaurant the waiter would for sure spit in your food.. HAHA.

I hardly ever hear a chinese person say thank you to another chinese person.

but I've walked into stores and heard the clerk say ‘ 你要买什么？’ in a rude tone. its like saying What do you want to buy? they could easily say 你想要买什么？which is more polite ' what would you like to buy?'

I do like the no tipping waiter idea in china. I wish more western countries were like that.

You like rudeness and not tipping? Classy.

dude, I had waitress asked me for tip during Chinese new year in a bar...i felt it's rude......i guess she figured out i did not have RMB and paid in creditcard... but then they do not have a place i can write tip on.

Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You like rudeness and not tipping? Classy.


don't get me wrong... back in the western world I do tip at restaurants for good service ( you know the old saying when in rome.).

However, I can't see why we should tip. I think its a Guilt western cultural thing (the starving waiter/waitress). If u look up the words waiter or waitress in the dictionary it says: a Man/Woman whose job is to serve customers at their tables in a restaurant. its their job to serve. they already get paid by the restaurant to serve. why a tip? and don't say low wages cuz restaurants have to pay at least min wage... and min wage is more that $2 and hour.

People who get into the food service industry (server) tend to do it for tips and expect them. if you look at it that way its kind of sad. because if you have a rude waiter/waitress/server and the tip is automatically added in the restaurant bill you are going to feel ripped off. And who wants to get ripped off. that sucks

plus you are already paying a big bill for the meal AND don't forget taxes (if applicable) then you got to fork out 13% for a tip. Give me a break.

If you walk into a clothing store and a store clerk ( non commission just hourly wage) helps you select the clothes u want to buy do u tip them? or lets say you are in a grocery store and you need to find some food item and one of the staff spends the next 10 minutes helping you.. do u tip them?

I've even heard the government expects waiters/ waitresses to claim their tips on tax returns. what does that tell u?

Canuck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dude, I had waitress asked me for tip during
> Chinese new year in a bar...i felt it's
> rude......i guess she figured out i did not have
> RMB and paid in creditcard... but then they do not
> have a place i can write tip on.


that sounds like a classic case of 'I see a waiguoren and I'm going to rip you off." did you check the price of the beer? they probably overcharged you.

I walked into a bar in china once and they were going to charge me 50 kuai for a bottle of beer (small one). after a 10 minute "conversation" I got them down to 5 kuai a beer plus they gave me some free beer.

I love saying the word 为什么？ why? when you think the price is high ask them why it is so high. then say you saw the same item in another place for much cheaper.

or in this case why is the beer so expensive here but at another bar it is much less. then you can add the "are you trying to cheat me?"

Good point! Tipping IS a strange custom when you think about it, especially when it has come to the point that it has in the USA. I especially agree with what you wrote about getting "service" at other types of businesses. They are glad to help you out because it is their job, and in some cases are much more helpful and friendly than most waitstaff, but they do it knowing no tip will be headed their way. The problem is that it HAS come to that point though, and many service people only accept the job because of the tips. It benefits the companies to solicit and distribute tips instead of paying higher wages because they want their waitstaff to be as friendly as possible to give them a competitive edge. I have to say that I hate tipping!!! Haha - what a cheapskate right? If I take my gf and her friends out to dinner in the US, paying $100 for dinner and drinks is bad enough - but then having to pay an extra 15-20% on top of it? No thanks! I prefer the "no tipping" system that much of the world practices and would be happy to see the USA make the change, but it won't without major legislation or unless a few of the major restaurant chains change their pay system, (no tips but pay the waitstaff a higher wage) and advertise "no tips" as a way for customers to save money, and then their quarterly profits rise resulting in more and more restaurants imitating them. That would be nice.

Hanyustudent Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> don't get me wrong... back in the western world I
> do tip at restaurants for good service ( you know
> the old saying when in rome.).
>
> However, I can't see why we should tip. I think
> its a Guilt western cultural thing (the starving
> waiter/waitress). If u look up the words waiter or
> waitress in the dictionary it says: a Man/Woman
> whose job is to serve customers at their tables in
> a restaurant. its their job to serve. they already
> get paid by the restaurant to serve. why a tip?
> and don't say low wages cuz restaurants have to
> pay at least min wage... and min wage is more that
> $2 and hour.
>
> People who get into the food service industry
> (server) tend to do it for tips and expect them.
> if you look at it that way its kind of sad.
> because if you have a rude waiter/waitress/server
> and the tip is automatically added in the
> restaurant bill you are going to feel ripped off.
> And who wants to get ripped off. that sucks
>
> plus you are already paying a big bill for the
> meal AND don't forget taxes (if applicable) then
> you got to fork out 13% for a tip. Give me a
> break.
>
> If you walk into a clothing store and a store
> clerk ( non commission just hourly wage) helps you
> select the clothes u want to buy do u tip them? or
> lets say you are in a grocery store and you need
> to find some food item and one of the staff
> spends the next 10 minutes helping you.. do u tip
> them?
>
> I've even heard the government expects waiters/
> waitresses to claim their tips on tax returns.
> what does that tell u?

Did you know that Madonna's Like a Virgin is actually about a girl who has tons a sex but one day meets this guy who is so huge when she has sex wtih him she is hurt like she was when she was a virgin again?



I agree though, it's a strange custom... and why don't we tip McDonald's employees? They give us food and clean up after us....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2010 04:17PM by Uberche.

I love the Reservoir Dogs photo ... HAHA I was even thinking of the movie when I wrote about the tipping thing last night. That argument scene in the restaurant over the tip. That's classic.

yeah, I'm guessing tipping went down for a while after that movie came out.

I m a foreigner, i live in China.
Very good this country. Your people welcome foreigners.
The life is good here. Nice shops windows lightning at night.
So many food.
Modern city landscape, so many good looking high scraper.

Just i thought you were a socialist country or communist country.

I vote the right side party in my country.
But OK socialists can be good for several points.
I thought socialist people don’t look down the low income people.
I thought socialists people speak and make friends with the low income people. They should be humanist, nice with low income people.

In my country right side party people, capitalists, we talk with the service in a restaurant.
We joke with them.
Often also we seduce the women who work as service in a restaurant.