Hey everyone,
I'm just wondering why losing face is so terrible? I'm confused. Doesn't everyone do something to embarrass themselves in America it's not the end of the world...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2010 02:44AM by Olive.

well, there is consequence to everything you do. You don't live alone, there are other people before who you should be responsible.

I am not Chinese, but thats how I feel.

i am Chinese, but i think losing face is kinda of lame. Why others should feel losing face while my action is totally done under individual choice?

I recalled when I was grade 11, I post something about June 4th on BBS and it attracts cops to my highschool, principal told me it’s losing face.. I was like what???

Then I grow up watching “The Simpsons” and “the west wing” in China. so don’t take my words.

Our generation of Chinese, gen Y, prefer more individual choices than Collectivism. My parents actually extremely supported my individual rights even they are Chinese…lol..

China is a Conformist culture which means you shouldn't do things that stick out and get you noticed, you should be working together for the betterment of the country. Losing face is doing something stupid or strange that makes others notice you and makes them think you are not a normal conforming person.

It's a means of control in my opinion. If you can tell people not to do something and they ask why, "Losing face" is a great all around reason. During the Olympics Chinese people were told NOT to apply for the right to protest, which China had promised the IOC they would let their people do, becuase it would make their country lose face, and most people followed the orders (those who didn't were threatened and could have been sent to work camps).

The West doesn't really get what it means to live in a conformist culture I think, it's a lot like living in a strictly religious culture where doing something like questioning god would be the equivalent of losing face. You don't lose face, why? Because losing face is bad! Why? Because no one wants to lose face! Why? Because losing face is bad! Why? Because no one wants to lose face! Why?.... YOu can see the circular logic of most of "Chinese Way".

I'm sure before the Chinese culture was destroyed in the revolution "Chinese way" had an actual meaning, but now it's just a control mechanism, "We do things this way!" Why? "Because it's Chinese way!" and that's it. You can't question or debate Chinese Way. It just is. And they HATE when you respond with "Well this is Western Way" hahaha

The new generation of young people are waking up to the stupidity of it. Unfortunately they don't really seem to have anything to put in the place of "chinese way" so instead they are growing up with very few rules or ideals except money and "success". China needs a new cultural revolution, but not one that destroys and replaces with a cult of personality (thanks Mao) but one that either re-creates the old culture or creates a new style of Chinese culture...

U guys don't even know what "losing face" is in the Chinese or Asian context. It started from the feudal period in China where folks have different "ranks" in society. This system was adopted by the Japanese and they brought the "losing face" culture to a whole new level - where a person who has lost face has to commit suicide (harakiri).

It's very complicated to explain to westerners who thinks it's okay to act like clowns or carry women's handbags in public. For the Chinese male, for eg, it's considered a "loss of face" to have the wife work to help put food on the table. But this culture is slowly fading as more young Chinese grow up under the influence of western culture and slowly becoming wimps. I personally know a Chinese guy who lives off his wife's earnings from a massage joint. The guy is no better than a pimp, imho. But I come from old-school Chinese upbringing so my views may not be representative of all Chinese people.

Astroboy Wrote:
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> U guys don't even know what "losing face" is in
> the Chinese or Asian context. It started from the
> feudal period in China where folks have different
> "ranks" in society. This system was adopted by the
> Japanese and they brought the "losing face"
> culture to a whole new level - where a person who
> has lost face has to commit suicide (harakiri).

The examples I gave are from Chinese people so according to what you say the Chinese people themselves have no idea what losing face is anymore (which I personally think is true) and/or maybe you're talking about a culture that was destroyed a long time ago (also true).

> It's very complicated to explain to westerners who
> thinks it's okay to act like clowns or carry
> women's handbags in public.

I know of NO foreign guy who would carry a female's purse in public, I know of TONS of Chinese guys who do. Chinese way and losing face, as I said, has changed. At one time it was like you are describing, now it's much less standard in it's meaning. For one guy losing face is carrying his girlfriend's purse, for another it's not carrying it. I've been told by some Chinese I must because it makes me look good and gains face as a good guy, and I've been told by others I musn't because it makes me look weak and loses face. I agree with the latter.

Nowadays everyone has different opinions on what it means to lose face, that's why it's difficult to explain to people.

I also found that more Chinese/Japanese/Asian males to dress kind of.. "girlish".
Especially a lot of people who are from South China or Japan seem to do that.

ThisHappy Boy finds your comment highly insulting! He does not dress girlish, he IS girlish! haha

i am from south China, i drive chevy pickup and i have chainsaw at home for picking up firewood...... lol..

in the actual biology, you can not just divide sex into male or female, not that simple

But culture should mandate this division. People have no right to just choose whatever they want.

Kdar1987 Wrote:
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> But culture should mandate this division. People
> have no right to just choose whatever they want.

Why don't people have the right to choose?

Uberche Wrote:
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> Kdar1987 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > But culture should mandate this division.
> People
> > have no right to just choose whatever they
> want.
>
> Why don't people have the right to choose?


exactly.... i recalled one of highschool physics teacher did sex reassignment surgery. parents were supportive. it's in vancouver though.

Losing face has got nothing to do with acting stupid or standing out. Otherwise China would have totally lost its face when most people can't even follow traffic lights properly. And requires crossing guards for adults to make sure they cross the road properly. And there are a lot of wild things happening in Shanghai. Fights, speaking out so damn loudly, complaints, even while they are bargaining are so loud it gains attention.

Losing face is mainly about being respected by the people that have guanxi with you. Especially family members. Mibehaving in front of strangers usually means no face lost because "who the hell are they anyway?" Losing face also has impact in the guanxi of the workplace. Never kow tow to your own employees that are much lower rank than you or you will lose face with lowering you ranks with them. You are also not suppose to tell off your bosses or parents in front of people because you are lower rank than them. But you should always GIVE FACE to the people higher rank than you. Give face is like respect and serve.

It is all power and structure. Mainly based on seniority, who you should respect and who should be respecting you. So even if the son is a powerful CEO he will still kneel down to his father (even if daddy is a peasant). Well unless the son hires the dad then during business time daddy kow tows to son and family time son kow tows to daddy.

In simple terms just take losing face as losing respect. For a culture that cares about family/business values. Its bad to lose family's/business's respect for you.

this might sound stupid, i think i need learn a lot of Chinese culture. even I am a Chinese, it sounds so foreigner to me when i heard stuff like "guan xi".

Moroes Wrote:
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> Losing face has got nothing to do with acting
> stupid or standing out. Otherwise China would
> have totally lost its face when most people can't
> even follow traffic lights properly. And requires
> crossing guards for adults to make sure they cross
> the road properly. And there are a lot of wild
> things happening in Shanghai. Fights, speaking
> out so damn loudly, complaints, even while they
> are bargaining are so loud it gains attention.

None of those things make you stand out though. They are all VERY common here. I was downtown one day with two friends and there was loud techno music playing so I started dancing as a joke and the one girls response was, and I quote, "Don't do that! We'll lose face!" I know it used to just be about seniority and knowing your place and such, but that's my point, We no longer live in ancient China and the people of modern China have expanded losing face to all sorts of things that weren't originally covered. As well it's become person specific so while dancing in public meant losing face to those girls I've also dated girls who danced in public with me.

Trying to get modern Chinese people to agree what specifically constitutes losing face is like trying to get a group of people from varying religions to agree what specifically constitutes a sin, everyone has their own ideas on it and they aren't always the same.

Yes, compared to Uberche, I think u have a better idea of what "losing face" means. As I mentioned, it's something passed down from feudalistic times and has something to do with your station or position in society.

Moroes Wrote:
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> Losing face is mainly about being respected by the
> people that have guanxi with you. Especially
> family members.


I think u may be confusing "embarrassment" with losing face. In Chinese, there isn't a clear distinction between the two and I can understand how westerners can get mixed-up. In your case, your friend probably asked you not to "diu lian" or become an embarrassment or draw attention. Chinese are generally not used to acting like clowns in public unlike westerners who are more spontaneous. Your incident has nothing to do with "losing face".

Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>I was downtown one
> day with two friends and there was loud techno
> music playing so I started dancing as a joke and
> the one girls response was, and I quote, "Don't do
> that! We'll lose face!" I know it used to just be
> about seniority and knowing your place and such,
> but that's my point, We no longer live in ancient
> China and the people of modern China have expanded
> losing face to all sorts of things that weren't
> originally covered. As well it's become person
> specific so while dancing in public meant losing
> face to those girls I've also dated girls who
> danced in public with me.

Uberche Wrote:
------------------------------
>
> None of those things make you stand out though.
> They are all VERY common here. I was downtown one
> day with two friends and there was loud techno
> music playing so I started dancing as a joke and
> the one girls response was, and I quote, "Don't do
> that! We'll lose face!" I know it used to just be
> about seniority and knowing your place and such,
> but that's my point, We no longer live in ancient
> China and the people of modern China have expanded
> losing face to all sorts of things that weren't
> originally covered. As well it's become person
> specific so while dancing in public meant losing
> face to those girls I've also dated girls who
> danced in public with me.
>
> Trying to get modern Chinese people to agree what
> specifically constitutes losing face is like
> trying to get a group of people from varying
> religions to agree what specifically constitutes a
> sin, everyone has their own ideas on it and they
> aren't always the same.

There is no course Face 101. So no one can give a proper explanation. Just take FACE in sociological terms as Chinese Social Evaluation. Try explaining Western Social Evaluation and I don't think you can easily explain it either. Well for Canadian youth their social evaluation is like finding who is cool, who are losers, finding one's indentity/individuality and self-claim how cool they are. Of course that didn't explain the Canadians as a whole. Its tough to try and explain any culture's social evaluating behavior.

Astroboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think u may be confusing "embarrassment" with
> losing face. In Chinese, there isn't a clear
> distinction between the two and I can understand
> how westerners can get mixed-up. In your case,
> your friend probably asked you not to "diu lian"
> or become an embarrassment or draw attention.
> Chinese are generally not used to acting like
> clowns in public unlike westerners who are more
> spontaneous. Your incident has nothing to do with
> "losing face".

I think Chinese nowadays confuse face with embarassment. As I said, what I'm saying is said by my Chinese friends. You want to argue that it's not losing face you can go argue with them but nowadays embarassing situations IS losing face to many people in China. Yes, as I said, I know losing face used to be much more specifc about status and place in society, but Chinese culture is changing, you need to keep up.

Kdar1987, i agree people have no right to choose being a male or female except Uberche. He is sex - undecided. hahahha

You can have any fantasy in your head you want, just don't try to act them out on me... Go to Thailand if you want to dream of lady boys...

What's the opposite word for "to lose face"? "To gain face"?

I guess the opposite would be to "save face".

There is a popular saying in China "si ai mian zhi" which roughly means "even death does not matter as long as one can save face."

Eg of when this phrase can be used: Chen is a jobless person who has no money. But hearing that his good friend is getting married, he will "beg, borrow or steal" so that he can give a big wedding present to his good friend. No matter how poor Chen is, he must not let his good friend know that he is in dire straits. Hence we can call Chen "si ai mian zhi".

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2010 01:38AM by Olive.

I like the Chinese saying.."si ai mian zhi" that "even death does not matter as long as one can save face."

In our country if we embarrassed ourselves we can always redeemed ourselves, "losing face" is a hard way of learning your mistakes but you can always correct it. However we have different culture and that we have to respect each others perspective.

I respect most parts of cultures but "si ai mian zhi" I do not respect. It's what led to Millions of people starving to death in China during the reforms, the government refused to admit they were wrong to save face so millions died. When Chinese people finally realize how much they've been lied to I think this whole face idiocy will be the first thing to go.

I may lost since I know this "losing face" terms from this forum. But I personally think that one action that is considered as losing face would depend on how people take a look on it.

''The new generation of young people are waking up to the stupidity of it. Unfortunately they don't really seem to have anything to put in the place of "chinese way" so instead they are growing up with very few rules or ideals except money and "success". ''

I believe Uberche's observation is correct. I also notice that in business negotiations. The focus of the Chinese is on ''win lose'' rather than ''win win'' as winning is good for gaining face. Chinese business people often talk about long term relationships, but in fact it comes down to single benefits, not mutual / shared benefits. It's a matter of mindset. The Chinese government focuses on economic development as they (might) believe it will lead to more wealth and thus harmony (for China).

However, money is often a poor advisor when it comes down to sustainable social development (not just for China but globally). In business, face is in my opinion a concept that is often difficult to understand / interpret, especially for foreigners. Take IPR for example. If you copy someone else his (registered) idea, in the West it would be considered as dishonest, not showing respect for those who spend a lot of time and effort to develop something and may lead to (rightfully) legal actions. In Chinese culture copying is not issue and still isn't, unless it is to protect Chinese interests. From a historical perspective this is understandable, as in the past everything you did or invented was owned by the state. My personal conclusion about face and China is that it is a very one directional (China) concept, that is in business practice difficult to deal with. I do see differences with younger generations, but that highly depends on their social background and international (cultural) experience / influence. Face is an integral part of Chinese society, but given the economic developments in China face is often used to gain personal wealth and success.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2011 06:20AM by Marcellus.

Hello
As far as I can see,losing face is very terrible in our china.I am a Chinese girl,to tell the truth,I am afraid of losing face especiallly in public,that will put me in a very embarrassed situation.Face is equal to the one's dignity,so losing face will make a big difference.

Stop listening to Uberche if you have any sense.

face is everything here in China.
People buy good brand to show off.
It is the culture here.
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