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    <title>China News</title>
    <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/list.html?q=16</link>
    <description><![CDATA[Discuss and debate news on China today.]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:15:42 -0400</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:15:42 -0400</lastBuildDate>
    <category>China News</category>
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    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91381%23msg-91381</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Well, i apologize for some of the comments i have
&gt; made in this thread. What infuriated me was your
&gt; &quot;Bastard Obama&quot; comment at another thread. As far
&gt; as politicians go, he's a good man and he
&gt; inherited an extraordinary mess. Yet, he gets
&gt; criticized for such nonsense: his birth
&gt; certificate, the jeans he wore to a casual events,
&gt; the bare arms of his wife and on and on, ad
&gt; nauseam. 

Which is a little funny just because it was entirely a joke. In fact as far as Politicians go I kinda like Obama. And the other day I heard his head of Health Care's future plans and it actually made me respect him a little. (As far as politicians go me respecting one of them is almost unheard of so I don't mean that in a bad way at all) He actually seems decent and fairly honest (as much as any politician can be) and just trying to do right which is nice after Bush's absolutely horrid facade of the Golly Gee Shucks I'm just a Cowboy bullshit...

&gt; What i hoped to convey was that if a small,
&gt; prosperous country like The Netherlands has run
&gt; into serious problems by legalizing prostitution,
&gt; then the offered recipe to legalize a rampant sex
&gt; industry for a huge, still developing, country
&gt; like China is likely to backfire even more.

I agree it probably wouldn't help too much with most of the problems, but I don't think it would hurt any either. It's already so out here that it might as well be legalized. I hope it would help clean up the disease a bit though... but probably not with the level of corruption that exists as County levels here... Mostly I was just sick of listening to the bullshit ideas about &quot;We're going to crack down on Prostitution!&quot; from the government when the government members are the ones who are constantly getting caught frequenting the brothels, the poor workers aren't keeping these expensive KTV bars a float, they can't afford to pay 1000+ rmb to have sex with a worker for one night...

&gt; The problem i have with this forum is that most of
&gt; it is juvenile and threads have a tendency to run
&gt; off-topic. Even the Chinese Culture and History
&gt; forums deals little with China's glorious 5,000
&gt; year past but with trivial subjects. There's a
&gt; thread there that talks about ... hairstyles. This
&gt; got 22,000 views. More important subjects hardly
&gt; get any attention. I'd love to learn more about
&gt; the current art scene in China, discussions about
&gt; new painters, respected writers and their work and
&gt; so on. Ajin posted lovely images about traditional
&gt; dress styles; I was the only one who left a
&gt; comment. The main diet at this forum is how to
&gt; chase someone from the opposite sex and these most
&gt; peculiar threads by people who claim extraordinary
&gt; love for someone they barely know or who seems to
&gt; exist only in the poster's imagination :) And
&gt; you're surprised that there are so few people in
&gt; my life?!

haha yeah that seems fairly representative of life though really (and sadly)... I know VERY few foreigners who are learning much about China while here, most are partying and drinking and fucking naive girls. Especially of the age that use the internet Message boards a lot... This is why, I think, people get the feeling like I think I'm so knowledgeable about things, it's not that I'm so clever, it's that A)I've been here so damn long and B ) the questions are all the same... i want to tell the moderator to just sticky a thread about Chinese girls in the forum explaining they aren't all conservative house wives waiting for foreigners to come rescue them except I doubt it would help because everyone would just ignore it and ask what the best way to get a Chinese girl to like them is anyway...]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91381%23msg-91381</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:15:42 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91370%23msg-91370</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Well, i apologize for some of the comments i have made in this thread. What infuriated me was your &quot;Bastard Obama&quot; comment at another thread. As far as politicians go, he's a good man and he inherited an extraordinary mess. Yet, he gets criticized for such nonsense: his birth certificate, the jeans he wore to a casual events, the bare arms of his wife and on and on, ad nauseam. 

What i hoped to convey was that if a small, prosperous country like The Netherlands has run into serious problems by legalizing prostitution, then the offered recipe to legalize a rampant sex industry for a huge, still developing, country like China is likely to backfire even more.

The problem i have with this forum is that most of it is juvenile and threads have a tendency to run off-topic. Even the Chinese Culture and History forums deals little with China's glorious 5,000 year past but with trivial subjects. There's a thread there that talks about ... hairstyles. This got 22,000 views. More important subjects hardly get any attention. I'd love to learn more about the current art scene in China, discussions about new painters, respected writers and their work and so on. Ajin posted lovely images about traditional dress styles; I was the only one who left a comment. The main diet at this forum is how to chase someone from the opposite sex and these most peculiar threads by people who claim extraordinary love for someone they barely know or who seems to exist only in the poster's imagination :) And you're surprised that there are so few people in my life?!]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91370%23msg-91370</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 10:40:09 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91323%23msg-91323</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; You realize, of course, that the things you list
&gt; are not of equal moral value. The only one that is
&gt; a moral issue is prostitution. 

That's the only one that is a moral issue to you. There are people who believe drinking is a sin and Morally wrong. Should they be allowed to tell you not to drink alcohol? And if you want to only talk about moral issues how about dancing with a person of the opposite sex? Some religions teach that dancing in a exciting fashion together is morally wrong. Or masturbation, should Masturbation be made illegal because people think it's morally wrong?

&gt; To me, the bimbo
&gt; who also lives off her body and gets jewelry from
&gt; one Joe, luxury vacations from another, and a fur
&gt; coat from yet another, is also a prostitute but
&gt; she would never call herself such.

I agree, and to show how much of an asshole I am, I once told my friend he was dating a prostitute because his girlfriend would withhold sex if he didn't buy her gifts and give her an allowance. Usually I'm not so blunt in real life but the division between prostitute and &quot;girlfriend who withholds sex unless she gets gifts and money&quot; has always pissed me off. This is a guy who has on many occasions said he'd never go to a prostitute, but he was happily paying for sex anyway (he said it wasn't so bad because she wasn't having so many partners, but who knows what she was doing before they met...)

&gt; No matter how much she straightens
&gt; herself out, I cannot conceive any man being in
&gt; love with her and managing to overlook the fact
&gt; that thousands of men have treaded on/in the same
&gt; territory he felt any desire for. 

But again that's your morality. Personally I would find it very hard if not impossible but I know a couple prostitutes in Vancouver who had boyfriends, very few though in comparison. (and yeah I know, people I know again, if you don't want to believe it you are welcome not to). 

&gt; Nor do I believe
&gt; such women can view sex, love, and men in a way
&gt; other women do. They have come across so many bad
&gt; guys wanting to harm them, have experienced so
&gt; much violence from pimps, have become so bored and
&gt; turned off by sex,  have become so used to making
&gt; good money that they (in general) squander away,
&gt; that their post-prostitution life is likely to be
&gt; misery, loneliness and perhaps also new
&gt; addictions. Yes, a few upon retirement become
&gt; advocates for rights for prostitutes and by doing
&gt; so,live a productive, useful life. But those are
&gt; only a few. 

In fact a lot of those I knew were lesbians or Bi and had much more stable relationships with women than men. Seems women were usually more understanding to their past, not to mention that a lot of them have had serious issues with men in the past...

&gt; Like you, I’ve wondered why the government
&gt; doesn’t do more about the prostitutes who are
&gt; there illegally, particularly the ones trafficked
&gt; (whom I consider as victims of a crime and for
&gt; whom I only feel empathy). I remember having seen
&gt; a documentary on Dutch TV about fifteen years ago
&gt; that mentioned the problem of lots of women from
&gt; Central America having been lured to Amsterdam on
&gt; the promise of making good money working in
&gt; restaurants. The brothels are just regular houses;
&gt; the illegal prostitutes seldom leave these places.
&gt; Maybe the Dutch police can’t obtain warrants to
&gt; raid these places. (I’m not that familiar with
&gt; the finer points of Dutch law anymore.) Maybe they
&gt; round up the illegal ones and deportation
&gt; procedures are lengthy affairs. They may still be
&gt; detained while new ones have taken their place. I
&gt; honestly don’t know. 
&gt; 
&gt; Because these women are often illegal, they may
&gt; not be registered as prostitutes either and 
&gt; therefore escape  the routine health check-ups. I
&gt; don’t know for sure either.

Yeah it's a bit mystifying, I think if you are going to legalize such an industry you cannot treat it like a normal industry with deregulation and the normal rules. The government needs to be MUCH more involved and if not running it than at the very least allowed free access to the house where it takes place to check on conditions... 

&gt; As to the fantasy Internet persona, I’m aware of
&gt; the allure of the Internet for some to pretend to
&gt; be somebody. Such people talk big but then you
&gt; read their poorly written gibberish and realize
&gt; that things don’t compute. You do get a sense of
&gt; people. I also have a golden memory for what
&gt; people say months ago, so if they change their
&gt; tune, I know it (Dammit, I wish my memory was as
&gt; fantastic for Chinese characters instead!!!). You
&gt; do get a sense whether someone is closer to 35-40
&gt; than to 20-25, whether they are well educated or
&gt; barely got out of high school. It’s funny I’m
&gt; not into social networking and have visited only a
&gt; few forums on a regular basis. But from two,
&gt; I’ve met a number of members in real life (after
&gt; more personal emails) and they were exactly what
&gt; they seemed to be on the net. Btw, none of these
&gt; involved Online Dating with which I’ve never
&gt; bothered.  So, it does make a difference to speak
&gt; from personal experiences or to say, “I’ve a
&gt; good friend who categorically states …” This
&gt; good friend may not be much of a friend and may be
&gt; a complete jerk. But about the poster I have a
&gt; sense. 

I've heard people say that but I've also had people on forums (especially political it seems) who turn out to be very different than one would think. I used to be involved with one over at www.gnn.tv that was full of people who all seemed pretty cool (this was 6 years ago, I still go back to check it out but it's mostly full of 9/11 Truthers now who are more than a bit nutty) but a couple it turned out were weirdos who made multiple personalities and such... since that place I'm much more careful about who I trust online. But I agree that on a forum like this most people are usually pretty honest about themselves... you never know though.

&gt; It’s all water on the bridge now but you could
&gt; have presented it with more detail that would have
&gt; opened a more wholesome debate.  Actually, if I
&gt; strongly disagree or am interested in a topic,
&gt; I’ll do some reading as well. My views on
&gt; Xinjiang changed quite a bit because I did more
&gt; digging. In fact, I posted links to a number of
&gt; excellent articles (one on the logistics and
&gt; control over Central Asia’s oil) but I doubt
&gt; anyone read them. I’ve also spent a number of
&gt; hours reading up on the Global Power Elite and
&gt; came up with a number of books by respectable
&gt; academics and would have liked to have gotten
&gt; OBC’s recommendation on what book to read. 

You're right, I could have written more, I was more hoping to stimulate discussion and just see where it led. I think part of it is my way of teaching in which I try not to tell my students my thoughts on an issue till later because I'd rather they had a discussion on their own first, otherwise a lot of them will just parrot what I've said because that's how you get good grades in China usually. My teaching infects all my life, two years ago I went home and my Aunt said that I talk to her like she's 8 years old which is just from talking to my students all the time in slow clear English...

&gt; The negativity here is exactly what I dislike.
&gt; I’d prefer more balance and more respectful
&gt; interaction. If you call me ignorant and an idiot,
&gt; I’ll repay in kind (as you know, I’m quite
&gt; capable of it). If you (or anyone else) says,
&gt; “you make a few valid points, but I strongly
&gt; disagree with your stance on blablabla” then
&gt; both people have the opportunity to learn from the
&gt; discussion without feeling a need for endless
&gt; posts (as we’ve been doing here) to defend
&gt; themselves.  

But the problem is more News stories are negative. As well if someone posts something positive what kind of response does it get? &quot;Hurray for China!&quot; thread over. Negative articles usually give much more chance for response from people. 

And before you try to make it seem like you were just answering in kind during this thread, look at your thread recap. You can't honestly think your recap was an unbiased look at what was said, you completely ignored most of my points and tried to make me look like I was just trying to promote prostitution. I'm in no way trying to promote prostitution, just ways to clean up the industry so that fewer women are hurt by it. You may not agree with legalizing it but I think we'd both be happy if the governments worked at taking the criminals out of the workings so the women, whether you agree with their job or not, weren't being hurt by it so much.

I'm not trying to say it's all your fault, quite obviously my response was less than friendly and very condescending at the end. We both have a part in how the other person responds to us, I'll try to be more civil if you will.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91323%23msg-91323</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 02:11:17 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91300%23msg-91300</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche Wrote:

[quote]When you start claiming the right to say what can
&gt; and can't go into another persons body where does
&gt; it stop? Sex? Drugs? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Fat?
&gt; Sugar? [/quote]

You realize, of course, that the things you list are not of equal moral value. The only one that is a moral issue is prostitution. To me, the bimbo who also lives off her body and gets jewelry from one Joe, luxury vacations from another, and a fur coat from yet another, is also a prostitute but she would never call herself such. The difference with her and the official ones is that she’s manipulative and probably bright enough to re-package herself and jump into marriage before her looks totally fade. The “real” ones forsake their future and a life of normality (however you want to define such nowadays) and respectability. And all this sacrifice for short-term money (whether to finance a drug habit or not). No matter how much she straightens herself out, I cannot conceive any man being in love with her and managing to overlook the fact that thousands of men have treaded on/in the same territory he felt any desire for. Nor do I believe such women can view sex, love, and men in a way other women do. They have come across so many bad guys wanting to harm them, have experienced so much violence from pimps, have become so bored and turned off by sex,  have become so used to making good money that they (in general) squander away, that their post-prostitution life is likely to be misery, loneliness and perhaps also new addictions. Yes, a few upon retirement become advocates for rights for prostitutes and by doing so,live a productive, useful life. But those are only a few. 

Actually, the district in Amsterdam was never all that big. The houses that the City has bought up have been converted to artist studios and gallery space. I think it is a good move.  Also, the country is quite small and crowded; space has always been at a premium.  If say you want fewer tourists, you are not going to build more hotels. So, by reducing the number of rooms where prostitutes can ply their trade, you also reduce the overall traffic. 

Like you, I’ve wondered why the government doesn’t do more about the prostitutes who are there illegally, particularly the ones trafficked (whom I consider as victims of a crime and for whom I only feel empathy). I remember having seen a documentary on Dutch TV about fifteen years ago that mentioned the problem of lots of women from Central America having been lured to Amsterdam on the promise of making good money working in restaurants. The brothels are just regular houses; the illegal prostitutes seldom leave these places. Maybe the Dutch police can’t obtain warrants to raid these places. (I’m not that familiar with the finer points of Dutch law anymore.) Maybe they round up the illegal ones and deportation procedures are lengthy affairs. They may still be detained while new ones have taken their place. I honestly don’t know. 

Because these women are often illegal, they may not be registered as prostitutes either and  therefore escape  the routine health check-ups. I don’t know for sure either.


As to the fantasy Internet persona, I’m aware of the allure of the Internet for some to pretend to be somebody. Such people talk big but then you read their poorly written gibberish and realize that things don’t compute. You do get a sense of people. I also have a golden memory for what people say months ago, so if they change their tune, I know it (Dammit, I wish my memory was as fantastic for Chinese characters instead!!!). You do get a sense whether someone is closer to 35-40 than to 20-25, whether they are well educated or barely got out of high school. It’s funny I’m not into social networking and have visited only a few forums on a regular basis. But from two, I’ve met a number of members in real life (after more personal emails) and they were exactly what they seemed to be on the net. Btw, none of these involved Online Dating with which I’ve never bothered.  So, it does make a difference to speak from personal experiences or to say, “I’ve a good friend who categorically states …” This good friend may not be much of a friend and may be a complete jerk. But about the poster I have a sense. 

[quote] So it's my fault people are too lazy to learn things for themselves? I presented an article, hopefully people read it and used it as a springboard to more research. [/quote]
It’s all water on the bridge now but you could have presented it with more detail that would have opened a more wholesome debate.  Actually, if I strongly disagree or am interested in a topic, I’ll do some reading as well. My views on Xinjiang changed quite a bit because I did more digging. In fact, I posted links to a number of excellent articles (one on the logistics and control over Central Asia’s oil) but I doubt anyone read them. I’ve also spent a number of hours reading up on the Global Power Elite and came up with a number of books by respectable academics and would have liked to have gotten OBC’s recommendation on what book to read. 


[quote]But people, myself included, tend to post more negative articles than positive. Not just about China but in regards to all countries. [/quote]

The negativity here is exactly what I dislike. I’d prefer more balance and more respectful interaction. If you call me ignorant and an idiot, I’ll repay in kind (as you know, I’m quite capable of it). If you (or anyone else) says, “you make a few valid points, but I strongly disagree with your stance on blablabla” then both people have the opportunity to learn from the discussion without feeling a need for endless posts (as we’ve been doing here) to defend themselves.  

Have a good Sunday!]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91300%23msg-91300</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 22:17:40 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91216%23msg-91216</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Dutch tourism outfits do not promote the Red-Light
&gt; District as a tourist attraction. The great
&gt; majority of tourists do not come to The
&gt; Netherlands for the prostitution. A supermarket or
&gt; a department store will attract more traffic in a
&gt; year than the District but are not considered
&gt; tourist attractions either. It's all semantics but
&gt; you never give up because, in your mind,  you have
&gt; to be right.  

Yeah, sometimes I'm petty and foolish about last words and semantics in threads. I admit that, hopefully you can too as you are the one who claimed you wouldn't take part in this thread again. I'm sure you were serious about it too, right up until you read my outrageous answer that was so clearly not true because, in your mind, you have to be right. 

I'd say the tourist attraction issue is a case of differences in definition. You seem to feel (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's not, because it isn't promoted as such, I'd personally say a Tourist attaction is anything that attracts tourists to go there regardless of promotion. In our own definitions we are both right it seems. You may not agree with my definition but hopefully you can see that it is a valid definition of the term Tourist Attraction and as such we are both right and wrong at the same time.
 
&gt; I knew that comparing it to rape was a bad choice
&gt; of words but it is a violation of a woman's body.
&gt; Women who do this to make an easy buck must be
&gt; devoid of self-esteem.

Or of a different moral outlook than you. Female Food Tasters could claim their job involved a violation of their body. Inserting things they don't really want into their bodies. And why do they do it? Money. The problem for you seems to be that it involves the Vagina which you consider sacred or off limits. In fact for the most part I agree and if I had a vagina I wouldn't be letting men use it for money, hence my not being on the street selling my ass to homosexuals and the &quot;curious&quot;. However if someone is volunteering the use of their vagina and sexual expertise than I would say that's their right as a free person. When you start claiming the right to say what can and can't go into another persons body where does it stop? Sex? Drugs? Cigarettes? Alcohol? Fat? Sugar? 

It's a slippery slope... New York City has banned Trans-Fats from their city. I try to limit my intake of Trans-fat but making it illegal for others to consume, in my opinion, is a step in the wrong direction. Raise their insurance rates if they are out of shape but if they want to pay the higher rates with the trade off being fatty goodness than why should we have the right to tell them no? Instead of just banning what people can and can't do, it seems to me, a better alternative would be educating people as to WHY they should stop doing these things. Trans-Fats are terrible for you and if told exactly what they are doing to their bodies I think most people who stop eating them, or at least limit their intakes. 

&gt; I have already said three times that in Amsterdam
&gt; the problems became worse after legalization and
&gt; the city has reduced the size of the district!!!

They took an industry that used to be spread out over a huge area and condensed it into a small district of one city... and then people wonder why it got worse. If you want to legalize it you do so everywhere and you start a VERY strict campaign to check the businesses for criminal activity. Check the legal status of every girl working and background checks for girls and owners/investors in the area. Either these things aren't being done in Amsterdam or there is a flaw in the system that needs to be worked out. Sending the entire industry back to Black Market isn't going to help anything except it will spread the problems out more so on paper it looks like they've gone away, but the women will still be being bought, sold, beaten and killed, luckily we can just ignore it because they are just prostitutes... 
It's what I call a Political Solution. On paper the problem goes away but it doesn't actually solve anything for those involved. But the politicians don't care as long as their voters keep voting for them.
In fact what I would suggest as a solution, if they honestly can't get the criminal element out of it, which seems to be what you are saying, is Government control of the industry. Make the government into the pimps, they control who can work and for how much, they do the tests to make sure it's kept clean. Turn the prostitute into a government worker completely destroying the ability of criminal elements to make the sex trade work. The profits go to the country ensuring plenty of money for Police enforcement with money left over for improving other sectors. 

&gt; This is true when you are in the process of
&gt; committing this criminal act. But there are
&gt; services available to help you stop this
&gt; lifestyle. 

And how do you stop it when many of them are drug addicts (meaning they can't stop it), others are there illegally and fearful of what will happen after. Not to mention that some of these girls are being used as essentially slaves because of the criminal element that has been allowed to control the industry so they don't have the money or ability to stop selling their bodies. It's a vicious circle, not sure if you've ever done any work with drug addicts but it's not as easy as just saying &quot;We have the services in place to deal with them if they don't want to do it anymore&quot;.

&gt; I'm not stunned at all; i have known foreigners
&gt; wherever i've lived as well. But you always take
&gt; this position that your knowing tons of people
&gt; sort of makes you an expert on whatever subject
&gt; you were discussing in a thread. Moreover, we
&gt; never know anything about these anonymous people,
&gt; what their education level is, what their
&gt; life/work experiences are. Why always drag these
&gt; people into the conversations (i'm not going to
&gt; dig up old, lengthy threads to show this to you). 

Because their experiences relate. This is the internet, I could, if I wanted to be disingenuous, just give these things as my own, how would you know either way? you seem to feel that experiences that are my own are somehow more honest than others but, lets be blunt here, you have NO idea who I am. For all you know I could be a CIA operative hired to make China look bad as OBC claimed. I could also be a Chinese citizen here to have fun and laugh at the angry foreigners. I have no idea who you are either. Whether you say your friend saw something or you say You saw something, it's the same. Some random person on the internet saw something. If you choose not to believe what I or people I know have done and seen that's your right. Just be honest enough to accept that it's all the same.

Oh and there's very little i would consider myself an expert on, but there is lots of things I can talk about. There are plenty of threads I don't talk on because I have no idea about the topic. Most of the threads I talk on are about China and Chinese people and that's one thing that i do know a lot about, wouldn't say I'm an expert but still pretty knowledgeable. I don't say that as bragging, it's nothing surprising, I've lived here 6 years and done my best to learn all I can about it so it makes sense I do have a lot of stories and experiences. If this was a forum about Cambodia I'd have next to nothing to talk about.

&gt; You have a habit of ending long threads by calling
&gt; people such words. 

Because people tend to tell me I'm very rude at the end of long threads where we disagreed, all the while ignoring the fact that they were just as rude to me in the thread. If people want to play the poor me card to end a thread they better be sure they haven't been just as rude the entire time or I will tell them they are too. The difference, in my opinion, is that I'm honest about it, I try to not be rude but sometimes I am. If you want an apology, I'm sorry I was rude and a dick in this thread, threads about morality tend to raise tempers and rudeness often.

&gt; I have known many people in various settings
&gt; but i have never had more than 2-3 truly good
&gt; friends at any one time. I value friendship highly
&gt; and being superficially acquainted with many
&gt; people doesn't do much for me. That's how i live
&gt; my life and i don't see why it is a reason to feel
&gt; sorry for me. Yes, from friends i can learn indeed
&gt; but the façade offered by acquaintances and
&gt; people you only know because of
&gt; work/school/certain activities isn't particularly
&gt; informative to me. It sounds my approach to life
&gt; is more qualitative and yours more quantitative. 

I misunderstood your meaning when you were talking about that it's strange that I know so many people. But I understand what you meant now. Like you I have very few good friends to be honest (always have, enjoy a few very good friends as opposed to lots of good friends) but I do have lots of distant friends because living here kind of necessitates it as people come and go so often you can't make good friends with many and if you put all your time in with 2-3 people and one or two goes home, what then? But it's cool as I get to meet a lot of people and experience a lot and I have a number of good friends here now who are also here long term.

&gt; And you are not rude? 

I am very sarcastic and can be very rude and assholish at times. I've stated this many times.

&gt; I've read the original post in this thread a few
&gt; more times in the last couple of days. You started
&gt; this thread for no other apparent reason than to
&gt; bash China. 

I started it for exactly what it became, to debate whether or not Prostitution should be illegal. As well I wanted to point out the insanity of their policies.

&gt; If you had been more respectful toward
&gt; the country where you've lived rather happily for
&gt; the past six years you'd have given details about
&gt; how the Chinese government is actually carrying
&gt; out this program (some of their actions may be
&gt; good, others might need to be improved, etc.)

So it's my fault people are too lazy to learn things for themselves? I presented an article, hopefully people read it and used it as a springboard to more research. Those who didn't research what the government is doing need to take responsibility for their own inaction. Most of these type of debates that I take part in I'm not here to convince you, just to present the other side of the argument which I believe in. They are also great places to push me to learn more, when someone gives me a statement, like the guy who claimed the USA has tons of anti-Chinese riots, I go and research it learning more in the process. Sometimes it changes what I believe sometimes it doesn't, but almost always by the end of a thread my views are at least somewhat changed. If you had asked me about Amsterdam's Prostitution at the beginning I would have claimed it was fine as it was, after your comments i went and studied it more and now i can see it has serious problems, but I still don't think the answer to them is pushing the entire industry into the gutter and further into the hands of the criminals. 

&gt; Their plan certainly will not promote
&gt; homosexuality!  But it sounds that if China does
&gt; something it must be automatically wrong in your
&gt; book and doesn't need elaboration.

Not at all. But people, myself included, tend to post more negative articles than positive. Not just about China but in regards to all countries. This is a forum about China so China is the focus here. If we were at a Canadian forum talking I promise you you'd be considering me a traitor to Canada because I don't like what the articles say, I've been told I hate all sorts of countries that I in no way hate because I'm critical of their governments. The truth though is that I view most countries as the same, the governments are all pricks who screw over their citizens and the people are mostly all good people who do bad things sometimes. 

People often ask me why I hate *insert country*, I don't hate *insert country*, I hate *insert country*'s government, the people of *insert country* are mostly friendly nice people.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91216%23msg-91216</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 06:53:02 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91120%23msg-91120</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[quote] Oh.. so people are attracted to it as tourists...
&gt; but it's not a tourist attraction.. huh... makes
&gt; sense... It's not a coffee cup! It's just a cup
&gt; that is used for coffee!![/quote]


Dutch tourism outfits do not promote the Red-Light District as a tourist attraction. The great majority of tourists do not come to The Netherlands for the prostitution. A supermarket or a department store will attract more traffic in a year than the District but are not considered tourist attractions either. It's all semantics but you never give up because, in your mind,  you have to be right.  

[quote] Rape... Right... Definitely a form of rape! Except
&gt; for the whole agreeing to the sex part I guess. [/quote]
I knew that comparing it to rape was a bad choice of words but it is a violation of a woman's body. Women who do this to make an easy buck must be devoid of self-esteem.


[quote]So legalize it and let the government get these
&gt; things out of the area. It would take some work
&gt; but the taxes created by legalizing it could
&gt; easily allow the city to hire more Police to get
&gt; rid of those problems. Having it criminalized
&gt; doesn't get rid of these problems, it makes them
&gt; worse because you can't go in and get rid of the
&gt; pimps and drug dealers plus you don't have the
&gt; added revenue to hire enough police to deal with
&gt; it. [/quote]

I have already said three times that in Amsterdam the problems became worse after legalization and the city has reduced the size of the district!!!

[quote] Agreed however it's very hard to seek help when
&gt; you are viewed as a criminal. [/quote]

This is true when you are in the process of committing this criminal act. But there are services available to help you stop this lifestyle. 
 

[quote]Congrats and yet apparently you are still stunned
&gt; that a Canadian living in China could know French
&gt; and Dutch people... Why? With all your experience
&gt; you should know people from all over shouldn't
&gt; you? ... I've just
&gt; never heard of a person who has traveled a lot who
&gt; was shocked by my knowing people from many
&gt; different countries...  [/quote]

I'm not stunned at all; i have known foreigners wherever i've lived as well. But you always take this position that your knowing tons of people sort of makes you an expert on whatever subject you were discussing in a thread. Moreover, we never know anything about these anonymous people, what their education level is, what their life/work experiences are. Why always drag these people into the conversations (i'm not going to dig up old, lengthy threads to show this to you).  

[quote]I guess because so far in this debate you've been
&gt; incredibly ignorant and rude to me as well ... I'm sorry to hear you don't have tons of friends. I do. It's really nice! [/quote]

You have a habit of ending long threads by calling people such words. I certainly haven't enjoyed the tone of this conversation and admit having contributed to it. I have enjoyed far more the friendly and respectful discussions in other forums. And i'll spend more time there from now on. I have known many people in various settings but i have never had more than 2-3 truly good friends at any one time. I value friendship highly and being superficially acquainted with many people doesn't do much for me. That's how i live my life and i don't see why it is a reason to feel sorry for me. Yes, from friends i can learn indeed but the façade offered by acquaintances and people you only know because of work/school/certain activities isn't particularly informative to me. It sounds my approach to life is more qualitative and yours more quantitative.  


[quote]I tend to assume people
&gt; are smart enough to know that Blanket statements
&gt; are not really representative of the entire
&gt; populace, maybe I give people more credit than I
&gt; should. [/quote]

And you are not rude? 


I've read the original post in this thread a few more times in the last couple of days. You started this thread for no other apparent reason than to bash China. If you had been more respectful toward the country where you've lived rather happily for the past six years you'd have given details about how the Chinese government is actually carrying out this program (some of their actions may be good, others might need to be improved, etc.) Their plan certainly will not promote homosexuality!  But it sounds that if China does something it must be automatically wrong in your book and doesn't need elaboration.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91120%23msg-91120</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:50:11 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91053%23msg-91053</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Again, the Red Light District is not a major
&gt; tourist attraction. For Amsterdam, these are the
&gt; fabulous museums (Rijksmuseum and Van Gogh
&gt; museums), Anna Frank Huis, Begijnenhof, the
&gt; Damrak, its canals, its sidewalk cafes and for
&gt; evening entertainment there are plenty of
&gt; excellent restaurants featuring numerous cuisines
&gt; (Indonesian Rijsttafel, French, nouvelle cuisine,
&gt; Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc.) and perhaps most
&gt; notably its pubs with their relaxed atmosphere. 

Right... it's not a tourist attraction.
&gt; 
&gt; Since the criminality increased in Amsterdam's
&gt; District (which coincided with legalizing it!!!),
&gt; I have never walked through it and many other
&gt; people do the same. Yes, there are people, often
&gt; from other countries, exclusively visiting
&gt; Amsterdam for its District and &quot;Coffeeshops.&quot; I've
&gt; no control over some people's taste. '

Oh.. so people are attracted to it as tourists... but it's not a tourist attraction.. huh... makes sense... It's not a coffee cup! It's just a cup that is used for coffee!!

&gt; So explain why it's so much more evil than other
&gt; &gt; work. Saying that it's &quot;preposterous&quot; and not
&gt; &gt; giving any reasons is not proof. 
&gt; 
&gt; I have no respect for prostitutes, drug dealers
&gt; and panhandlers.

Sorry to burst your moral bubble but you respecting someone has nothing to do with the question asked. I don't respect the people who work for Monsanto but their job is still just a normal job.

&gt; My sympathies go to people
&gt; plodding along in minimum-wage jobs for far less
&gt; money because they want to earn their living in a
&gt; decent way. I have no respect for prostitution
&gt; because i see it as a form of rape, i.e. a
&gt; violation of a woman's body, except the prostitute
&gt; get paid for it a fair amount.

Rape... Right... Definitely a form of rape! Except for the whole agreeing to the sex part I guess.


&gt; To me, sex is part
&gt; of love. It's not a commodity! For the same reason
&gt; i'm appalled by today's western culture that only
&gt; talks about sex, sex,sex and then is surprised
&gt; that kids as young as eleven already engage in
&gt; intercourse. 

I disagree with sex being only a part of love but I agree with your comments on the culture. Sex is a fun thing to do but it needs better education for our younger people to help them understand why they should be waiting till later to start.

&gt; People don't want brothels in their neighborhood
&gt; because they don't want to see scantily-clad women
&gt; soliciting on their street or at windows and the
&gt; weird traffic these women attract. 

So they are welcome to not live there. I'm fine with that.

&gt; They don't want
&gt; to see 35 sleazy customers (average per prostitute
&gt; per night) entering and leaving the brothel, don't
&gt; want to see the violent pimps, don't want to hear
&gt; or see the fights, see the dope dealers and their
&gt; shenanigans. 

So legalize it and let the government get these things out of the area. It would take some work but the taxes created by legalizing it could easily allow the city to hire more Police to get rid of those problems. Having it criminalized doesn't get rid of these problems, it makes them worse because you can't go in and get rid of the pimps and drug dealers plus you don't have the added revenue to hire enough police to deal with it.

&gt; Many of the prostitutes entered their
&gt; profession to finance their drug habits. You
&gt; condone them but then you say later on that it is
&gt; all a matter of personal responsibility. It sure
&gt; is! If you have a drug or prostitution problem you
&gt; should seek help and become a responsible citizen
&gt; instead of wasting your life away.

Agreed however it's very hard to seek help when you are viewed as a criminal. If you legalize the industry you can start to deal with the issues that create such problems. Keeping it illegal means you can't deal with them because those involved wont come forward for help.

&gt; Yes, i'm familiar with Vancouver's East Side
&gt; because whenever i visited Vancouver regularly i
&gt; would always visit the Chinese bakery in Chinatown
&gt; and this forced me to see the &quot;heroin district.&quot;
&gt; I'm sure the inhabitants of Chinatown do not
&gt; appreciate either that their neighborhood has been
&gt; taken over by those who do not conduct their lives
&gt; in a responsible, honest fashion.  

I'm sure they aren't. Which is why Canada provided safe injection sites and, while they didn't quite decriminalize it by law, have essentially decriminalized it to try and offer help to the people. And it's helping,  though it's hard with the amount of Heroin that comes in through that port.

&gt; This comment is as hilarious as your previous one
&gt; about you having the moral upper hand.

That's good because they both were meant in jest.

&gt; I've lived in four countries. They also include
&gt; France and Italy. In .....few professional credentials. 

Congrats and yet apparently you are still stunned that a Canadian living in China could know French and Dutch people... Why? With all your experience you should know people from all over shouldn't you?

&gt; Now, since you claim too be much better travelled
&gt; than i am, why don't you tell us where you have
&gt; lived and traveled to??? What are your academic
&gt; achievements? 

I never claimed to be well traveled I've just never heard of a person who has traveled a lot who was shocked by my knowing people from many different countries... 

&gt; Yeah, i bet you have good reason to treat me with
&gt; so much condescension!

I guess because so far in this debate you've been incredibly ignorant and rude to me as well as very condescending yourself. Are you really that surprised by my reaction to your posts so far? The difference between my rudeness and yours is that I freely admit I have been an asshole (though so far in this debate I have been much less, though I do have to admit it's only through revising what I write because in general the first thing I write is usually much more rude to you and your Moral ideals), you on the other hand seem to have this idea that you are not.

&gt; I recall distinctly that one of your arguments in
&gt; numerous threads for being right was that you knew
&gt; TONS of people. I always laughed about this. I've
&gt; lived in The Netherlands 20 years and, despite
&gt; having family, friends and acquaintances there, i
&gt; never knew tons of people, neither then or now. I
&gt; certainly would not use the people i know as a
&gt; convincing argument on why i would be right. I
&gt; base mine on my own experience and what i've
&gt; learned through reading.

I'm sorry to hear you don't have tons of friends. I do. It's really nice! I suggest next time you are traveling you go out and meet more people. People are what make traveling so great in my opinion. I use people's experiences to give examples on life the same way as most people in the world do. My experiences and my friend's experiences can all be used to learn things from, learning from other people's mistakes and victories is not a bad thing... It can help you a lot.

&gt; One of the problems i have had with many of your
&gt; posts is that you make broad generalization based
&gt; on your own, by definition limited, experiences. A
&gt; few examples: your recent thread on how easy, and
&gt; hypocrytical, Chinese girls are and just love to
&gt; jump in the sack with foreigners. As Lovebeside
&gt; beautifully pointed out, the Chinese girls
&gt; interested in relationships with foreigners
&gt; represent only a very small segment of the
&gt; population and maybe they happen to be the &quot;easy&quot;
&gt; ones. Just because five dozen expats make claims
&gt; about the Chinese girls they happen to know, it
&gt; doesn't say anything about the 100s of millions
&gt; they don't know! 

I don't know what comments you are talking about as I've been in many discussions about Chinese girls, both defending them and otherwise. Yes I do make blanket statements at times, Sorry if that offends you, I don't mean to say every Chinese girl is easy, I'm saying a large part of them are (some through naivety and some because they are just simply curious) and the Chinese girls most foreigners will meet are. I tend to assume people are smart enough to know that Blanket statements are not really representative of the entire populace, maybe I give people more credit than I should.

&gt; I've heard you conclude that
&gt; Chinese men weren't as accomplished lovers as
&gt; Westerns (i dislike talking about sex so i won't
&gt; repeat the exact wording) because of your
&gt; girlfriends never having had certain sexual
&gt; experiences before they met you (you wonderful
&gt; Casanova!). I don't believe you are a womanizer
&gt; and suspect therefore that the number of
&gt; girlfriends you had is less than a dozen. They
&gt; were probably also rather young and not terribly
&gt; sophisticated in sex. 

Not all Chinese men but in general yeah I'd say they are not so accomplished as the same type of man in the West. It's a simple matter of practice and knowledge. Sex Education in missing in China and it hurts their sex life. Obviously some Chinese men are very good at sex, I have one friend who says her boyfriend is great and she has multiple orgasms almost every time. But the average Chinese man and woman doesn't know as much about sex as the average Westerner (Not saying that's always a good or bad thing, just saying). If you have a problem with that statement I suggest you bring it up with the Chinese government and get them to start educating their people about sex and stop telling them retarded stories about how if you have sex a lot you'll die younger (yes that was taught to my ex-girlfriend's PE class in University). 

As for my girlfriends, yes under 12 of them and some were younger but I've also dated a 35 year old Chinese women who was very educated about sex through self study. and another women who was 28 and also very knowledgeable.

&gt; If i were Chinese, i would have felt offended many
&gt; times by some of your comments. And i do so now
&gt; because you portray yourself as more knowledgeable
&gt; about my own country and consider yourself more
&gt; traveled and cosmopolitan than i even though this
&gt; is obviously false.  

People sometimes get offended by the truth. But it doesn't make it wrong. And I've never claimed to be more knowledgeable about your country. I have no idea what you know or don't know, as well truth is sometimes relative as what you view as bad I might view as not. While someone might view Chinese girls as innocent naive angels who are taken advantage of by the big bad foreigners, someone else might view them as sexual women who know what they want and use foreigners to get it. Are either wrong? No. Are Either right? No. 

&gt; 
&gt;  Canada's Health Care problems are it's own ... 
&gt; 
&gt; You who love to talk down to people and portray
&gt; yourself as so superior to everyone else still
&gt; haven't figured out something basic about your own
&gt; native language that is particularly important if
&gt; one teaches that language. I pointed this out in
&gt; the WWII thread and consider it a big gaffe for
&gt; anyone who is an English-speaker. We're not
&gt; talking a rushed typo here. You have never done it
&gt; correctly. But you always prefer to ignore other
&gt; people's comments. 

Yes I know I have problems with that and I have problems with than/then, working on both. Congrats you found my weakness! Grammar.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C91053%23msg-91053</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 02:57:41 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90990%23msg-90990</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche:

There is a major sex tourist trade through
&gt; Amsterdam and I'm surprised you are trying to deny
&gt; it. It's not a few of tourists who &quot;walk through
&gt; it&quot; it's a lot. I hope only a few use it (though
&gt; I'd guess more than a few do) but a lot do go to
&gt; see it. Maybe it wasn't done on purpose by
&gt; Amsterdam but it does still exist. 

I don't have time to respond to your &quot;book&quot; but make a few comments here and there. Then i'll stop replying to your posts in this thread, as i did in the WWII thread, as Green Hamster did in the ABC thread and as OBC did in numerous threads. It's not that we concede but ... we do have a life to live and things to do.

Again, the Red Light District is not a major tourist attraction. For Amsterdam, these are the fabulous museums (Rijksmuseum and Van Gogh museums), Anna Frank Huis, Begijnenhof, the Damrak, its canals, its sidewalk cafes and for evening entertainment there are plenty of excellent restaurants featuring numerous cuisines (Indonesian Rijsttafel, French, nouvelle cuisine, Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc.) and perhaps most notably its pubs with their relaxed atmosphere. 

Since the criminality increased in Amsterdam's District (which coincided with legalizing it!!!), I have never walked through it and many other people do the same. Yes, there are people, often from other countries, exclusively visiting Amsterdam for its District and &quot;Coffeeshops.&quot; I've no control over some people's taste. 

However, it is not a major tourist attraction and, as i said earlier, Amsterdam has closed a third of the District down and will reduce it further. 

So, please stop insisting otherwise, the more so since you have never been there!


[quote]So explain why it's so much more evil than other
&gt; work. Saying that it's &quot;preposterous&quot; and not
&gt; giving any reasons is not proof. [/quote]

I have no respect for prostitutes, drug dealers and panhandlers. My sympathies go to people plodding along in minimum-wage jobs for far less money because they want to earn their living in a decent way. I have no respect for prostitution because i see it as a form of rape, i.e. a violation of a woman's body, except the prostitute get paid for it a fair amount. To me, sex is part of love. It's not a commodity! For the same reason i'm appalled by today's western culture that only talks about sex, sex,sex and then is surprised that kids as young as eleven already engage in intercourse. 

People don't want brothels in their neighborhood because they don't want to see scantily-clad women soliciting on their street or at windows and the weird traffic these women attract. They don't want to see 35 sleazy customers (average per prostitute per night) entering and leaving the brothel, don't want to see the violent pimps, don't want to hear or see the fights, see the dope dealers and their shenanigans. Many of the prostitutes entered their profession to finance their drug habits. You condone them but then you say later on that it is all a matter of personal responsibility. It sure is! If you have a drug or prostitution problem you should seek help and become a responsible citizen instead of wasting your life away.

Yes, i'm familiar with Vancouver's East Side because whenever i visited Vancouver regularly i would always visit the Chinese bakery in Chinatown and this forced me to see the &quot;heroin district.&quot; I'm sure the inhabitants of Chinatown do not appreciate either that their neighborhood has been taken over by those who do not conduct their lives in a responsible, honest fashion.  

[quote]And no my mother was not a prostitute. [/quote]

I only asked this rotten question because you saw/see no difference between a prostitute and other women.


[quote]I'm sorry you don't have the opportunity or
&gt; whatever it is that causes you not to travel and
&gt; meet interesting people from all over but it's not
&gt; actually a special thing or a rare thing to know
&gt; people from many many countries when living
&gt; abroad. [/quote]

This comment is as hilarious as your previous one about you having the moral upper hand.

I've lived in four countries. They also include France and Italy. In France i studied toward my undergraduate degree in French and also worked there. In Italy i worked for a prestigious outfit (no, not the Vatican :)) in a professional capacity. I worked there on average 12 hour days and didn't mind because i got paid for it very well. 

As to travel, i've seen all but two states of the US, a good chunk of Europe, Mexico Australia and Taiwan. I'm fluent in four languages; used to be fluent in Italian as well but that's now rusty. Also have a graduate degree from a good school in the US and a few professional credentials. 

Now, since you claim too be much better travelled than i am, why don't you tell us where you have lived and traveled to??? What are your academic achievements? 

Yeah, i bet you have good reason to treat me with so much condescension!

I recall distinctly that one of your arguments in numerous threads for being right was that you knew TONS of people. I always laughed about this. I've lived in The Netherlands 20 years and, despite having family, friends and acquaintances there, i never knew tons of people, neither then or now. I certainly would not use the people i know as a convincing argument on why i would be right. I base mine on my own experience and what i've learned through reading.

One of the problems i have had with many of your posts is that you make broad generalization based on your own, by definition limited, experiences. A few examples: your recent thread on how easy, and hypocrytical, Chinese girls are and just love to jump in the sack with foreigners. As Lovebeside beautifully pointed out, the Chinese girls interested in relationships with foreigners represent only a very small segment of the population and maybe they happen to be the &quot;easy&quot; ones. Just because five dozen expats make claims about the Chinese girls they happen to know, it doesn't say anything about the 100s of millions they don't know! I've heard you conclude that Chinese men weren't as accomplished lovers as Westerns (i dislike talking about sex so i won't repeat the exact wording) because of your girlfriends never having had certain sexual experiences before they met you (you wonderful Casanova!). I don't believe you are a womanizer and suspect therefore that the number of girlfriends you had is less than a dozen. They were probably also rather young and not terribly sophisticated in sex. 

If i were Chinese, i would have felt offended many times by some of your comments. And i do so now because you portray yourself as more knowledgeable about my own country and consider yourself more traveled and cosmopolitan than i even though this is obviously false.  

[quote] Canada's Health Care problems are it's own ... [/quote]

You who love to talk down to people and portray yourself as so superior to everyone else still haven't figured out something basic about your own native language that is particularly important if one teaches that language. I pointed this out in the WWII thread and consider it a big gaffe for anyone who is an English-speaker. We're not talking a rushed typo here. You have never done it correctly. But you always prefer to ignore other people's comments. 

I no longer respond to further replies to my previous post as i don't want a flame war either.

As i announced in the opening paragraph, i don't want to take more time on this issue.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90990%23msg-90990</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 18:56:15 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90849%23msg-90849</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Again, you're making judgments about Amsterdam
&gt; without ever having been there. It is NOT a major
&gt; tourist attraction-- Amsterdam has plenty of those
&gt; without having any need to promote its Red Light
&gt; District. A few tourists and a few locals may walk
&gt; through it if they're in the neighborhood. I've
&gt; never gone there alone and never since it became
&gt; legalized because it became too criminal then and
&gt; i won't have any amusement about women who may be
&gt; slaves.

There is a major sex tourist trade through Amsterdam and I'm surprised you are trying to deny it. It's not a few of tourists who &quot;walk through it&quot; it's a lot. I hope only a few use it (though I'd guess more than a few do) but a lot do go to see it. Maybe it wasn't done on purpose by Amsterdam but it does still exist. 

&gt; Actually, there are government agencies in The
&gt; Netherlands (and also in the US) who help women to
&gt; get out of the &quot;life.&quot; To say that the work of a
&gt; prostitute is the same as any other job is
&gt; preposterous! Was your mother a prostitute by any
&gt; chance? I'm asking since according to your
&gt; statements this question wouldn't hurt your
&gt; feelings. And you're the one preaching about
&gt; morality???

So explain why it's so much more evil than other work. Saying that it's &quot;preposterous&quot; and not giving any reasons is not proof. 

And no my mother was not a prostitute.

&gt; To say, prostitution hurts no one is a lie. Who
&gt; wants to live next to a brothel? How many
&gt; marriages could have been shored up/saved if it
&gt; weren't for the guy making do with prostitutes
&gt; rather than examining his own flaws? I don't know
&gt; and neither do you, although i'm sure you'll
&gt; pretend otherwise. 

And again you're not talking about prostitution being evil, Some people who buy knives are murders, doesn't make the Knife company murderers. Prostitution is just an industry like any other, they have good customers and bad. If a man spends his nights drinking in a bar instead of at home with his wife would you say that the alcoholic industry should be illegal for hurting families? or would you say that guy's an asshole and needs to clean up his life for his family? It's not the industry's fault there is bad people.

As for living next to a brothel again not the brothels fault it's that people have a moral problem with it. No one wants to live beside a brothel because they are against it morally and afraid it will corrupt their children. This is a Moral issue, it's your right to say &quot;I don't want to live beside a brothel&quot; because that's just using your Moral judgment to live your life. Use your morals in your life, just keep them out of mine.

&gt; Why am i not surprised? After all, you know TONS
&gt; on Dutch people, TONS of French people, TONS of
&gt; Islamists in China and TONS of other people there
&gt; and with all of whom you have these deep,
&gt; intellectual discussions. Oh, and let's not forget
&gt; the TONS of female Chinese students who readily
&gt; confide in you the most intimate details of their
&gt; sex life. Please, don't expect any of us to ever
&gt; have believed all that nonsense.

I'm sorry you don't have the opportunity or whatever it is that causes you not to travel and meet interesting people from all over but it's not actually a special thing or a rare thing to know people from many many countries when living abroad. I never said TONS, but I do know some French and Dutch people, just like almost every foreigner living in Nanjing knows them. I assumed you knew that it's very common for expats to all meet and hangout together seeing as you grew up abroad. 
In Vancouver I spent my time hanging out with drug addicts and prostitutes because I was young and smoked a lot of weed and my one good friend was a Heroin addict, we spent a lot of time in dirty areas of the city because that's where Heroin addicts mostly hang out. Again if you went to Vancouver 8-9 years ago it wouldn't have been surprising either as Vancouver had a massive Heroin problem and East side was full of people hanging out and shooting up (which is why the government opened safe injection sites). 
As for the Chinese students, if you don't want to believe you are welcome not to. I talk about my experiences as they relate to topics at hand, you are welcome to dismiss them out of hand because of your own lack of experience in the matter. I understand that it all seems strange but most people I know who have stayed in China for an extended period of time teaching English in Universities have stories about the same as mine. 

&gt; Perhaps i would have enjoyed the nasty version.
&gt; You probably changed out of fear of the response i
&gt; would undoubtedly have given it. On what exactly
&gt; do you base the fact that you have the moral upper
&gt; hand??? It reflects merely your usual arrogance. I
&gt; made a bad decision at the level of entering
&gt; prostitution? Wow, what a windbag you are! You
&gt; should re-read your quoted paragraph a few times;
&gt; perhaps then it will dawn on you how pompous it
&gt; sounds. 

I changed it because I decided not to start another useless flame war here. Obviously you are trying hard to goad me into one but I'll do my best to address the issue and not insult your family members and such. I didn't fear your response, I feared another two week session of bitching like what I did with OBC. 

I never said your bad decision was on the level of prostitution, I said they are both bad decisions, my point was simply people make bad decisions all the time, some bad, some very bad. I don't know why a bad decision like entering the wrong career because of bad times in your life should be allowed to destroy your entire life. 

&gt; Btw, i noticed you did a fine job of dodging my
&gt; questions in my response to you calling Obama a
&gt; &quot;bastard.&quot; That in itself tells me a great deal
&gt; and confirms what i've always expected.

Sorry again it was a case of misunderstanding my point originally. We were discussing the USA bringing in Health Care for everyone, I called him a bastard for ruining Canadian's ability to go get private care in the USA, I didn't think anyone would actually believe I truly meant he's a bastard, obviously the USA should be free to bring in whatever health care they want, Canada's Health Care problems are it's own and we need to fix things at home. I don't much care for Obama as I don't like politicians in general but for a politician he actually seems alright. As well I've since found out that I was completely wrong, he's not destroying it at all, he's just adding a new level to the USA Health Care which I'd say seems like a great move.

And while we're on the topic of ignoring things, here's a simple question no one has actually answered yet except on moral grounds. Morality is great for personal decisions but I'd hope people don't want to use Morality to make laws, otherwise whose morality should we use? Mine? Yours? The Pope's?

Question: Why should Prostitution be illegal?

To save some time here's some answers to the easy reasons.
A)Hurts people
Do you also support criminalizing Alcohol and Cigarettes? If not why not? They kill hundreds of thousands of people every year just in the USA alone, they have also caused the deaths of thousands more innocent people through drunk driving, violence and, in the case of cigarettes, second hand smoke.

B)Ruins the Prostitute's life.
Only because we destroy their life for their bad decision by putting them in jail and making them criminals. Why should someone who makes a bad decision that only hurts themselves be punished and have their life ruined because of it?

C)Encourages criminals in the sex trade.
No, it being illegal encourages criminals, putting it in the black market allows the pimps and gangs to control it both of which are notorious for violence against the women and not letting those in the industry get out, hooking them on drugs and threats of violence if they even think of leaving? Legalizing it would subject it to laws and government oversight which, if done thoroughly, could minimize the criminal involvement and allow a better, safer life for the women in the industry.

D)Hurts the Family
It's like claiming sugar hurts families, Sugar can cause health problems as well, too much sugar has been linked to diseases, Now are you calling for Sugar to be illegal? Of course not because it's a person's choice whether or not to eat that sugar. And it's their partner's choice whether or not they will be upset with them for eating it. Eating too much fat hurts the family but it's not fat itself who does it, it's the idiot who doesn't control themselves that hurts the family. Going to a prostitute can hurt your family, but that's the person going's fault. The Prostitute doesn't come to your house and force themselves on you. Personal responsibility for your actions is paramount in a free society.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90849%23msg-90849</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 23:53:26 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90792%23msg-90792</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
[quote]As for the minimizing of the Red Light District,
&gt; yes The Netherlands went too far. They went from
&gt; Legalizing it to promoting it as a tourist
&gt; attraction. That's pretty fucked up. Uberche is
&gt; not calling on creating Tourist attractions in
&gt; China for prostitution, he's calling for
&gt; legalization and strict controls on it. [/quote]

Again, you're making judgments about Amsterdam without ever having been there. It is NOT a major tourist attraction-- Amsterdam has plenty of those without having any need to promote its Red Light District. A few tourists and a few locals may walk through it if they're in the neighborhood. I've never gone there alone and never since it became legalized because it became too criminal then and i won't have any amusement about women who may be slaves.

[quote]What business of
&gt; yours is it if someone wants to let someone else
&gt; use their body for half an hour for money? How is
&gt; it different from any other work? Your moral
&gt; objections are things that should tell you how to
&gt; live your life.  Not tell others how to live
&gt; theirs. If they don't hurt anyone else why do you
&gt; care? [/quote]


Actually, there are government agencies in The Netherlands (and also in the US) who help women to get out of the &quot;life.&quot; To say that the work of a prostitute is the same as any other job is preposterous! Was your mother a prostitute by any chance? I'm asking since according to your statements this question wouldn't hurt your feelings. And you're the one preaching about morality???

To say, prostitution hurts no one is a lie. Who wants to live next to a brothel? How many marriages could have been shored up/saved if it weren't for the guy making do with prostitutes rather than examining his own flaws? I don't know and neither do you, although i'm sure you'll pretend otherwise. 

[quote] actually has many friends in Vancouver who
&gt; are/were prostitutes as he used to hang out
&gt; downtown East Hastings [/quote]

Why am i not surprised? After all, you know TONS on Dutch people, TONS of French people, TONS of Islamists in China and TONS of other people there and with all of whom you have these deep, intellectual discussions. Oh, and let's not forget the TONS of female Chinese students who readily confide in you the most intimate details of their sex life. Please, don't expect any of us to ever have believed all that nonsense.

[quote] You'll be happy to know that this is a much nicer version than what I was originally going to post. See you took things I've said and used them out of context or twisted them to make me look bad, I could have done the same but apparently in this case, according to my morals, I have the Moral upper hand. Doesn't make you a bad person, just like Prostitutes aren't bad people, just means you made a bad decision. Luckily your bad decision isn't yet illegal so you're entire life wont be ruined by it like Prostitute's lives are.[/quote]

Perhaps i would have enjoyed the nasty version. You probably changed out of fear of the response i would undoubtedly have given it. On what exactly do you base the fact that you have the moral upper hand??? It reflects merely your usual arrogance. I made a bad decision at the level of entering prostitution? Wow, what a windbag you are! You should re-read your quoted paragraph a few times; perhaps then it will dawn on you how pompous it sounds. 

Btw, i noticed you did a fine job of dodging my questions in my response to you calling Obama a &quot;bastard.&quot; That in itself tells me a great deal and confirms what i've always expected.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90792%23msg-90792</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:52:05 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90676%23msg-90676</link>
      <author>Moroes</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[url=http://chinanewswrap.com/2009/07/27/peoples-daily-corrupt-female-officials-enjoy-sex-no-less-than-their-male-counterparts/]People’s Daily: Corrupt female officials enjoy sex as much as their male counterparts[/url]
[quote]The People’s Daily website has published the views of one of its online readers in its opinions section, which provides an explanation of why corrupt female officials are no less sleazy or lascivious than their male counterparts.
The piece was written by He Guo-ting (”何国庭”).[/quote]
A good article. And this should be the original Chinese version:

[url=http://opinion.people.com.cn/GB/1036/9693965.html][size=medium]女贪官好色的劲头缘何不比男贪官差[/size][/url]
[quote][size=medium]最近，原中纪委常委祁培文在东莞作“三纪”教育报告时指出，“在中纪委查处的大案中，95%都有女人问题。”(《广州日报》)[/size][/quote]]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90676%23msg-90676</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 03:57:37 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90632%23msg-90632</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Let me recap the thread:
&gt; 
&gt; 1. Uberche disagrees with China's intent on
&gt; cracking down on prostitution and takes the
&gt; bizarre position that it should actually promote
&gt; pornography and prostitution!

1. No Uberche takes the position that it should legalize them because criminalizing them just destroys people's lives. And many of these people's lives are already bad so how is putting them in jail going to help? 

&gt; 3. OBC correctly pointed out that China is not
&gt; like The Netherlands. China has a population of
&gt; 1.2-1.4 billion and, as a developing country, far
&gt; from perfect health care. The Netherlands is the
&gt; size of Taiwan, maybe a little bigger, and has a
&gt; population of 16 million. It has had universal
&gt; health care since the 1950s that at this point
&gt; must be one of the best in the world, together
&gt; with other EU countries. It's paid for by steep
&gt; income taxes.

3. Uberche points out that China already has massive prostitution and pornography, legalizing it isn't going to do anything except allow the government to control it and institute stricter laws to keep women safe.

&gt; 4. Tangerine pointed out that Uberche doesn't
&gt; really know all that much about The Netherlands
&gt; and suspects that Uberche has never been there.
&gt; There is a large-scale effort underway to reduce
&gt; the size of the only significant red-light
&gt; district in the country, i.e. in Amsterdam.
&gt; Prostitution has always been tolerated in The
&gt; Netherlands but didn't become legal until a decade
&gt; ago. It should be noted that this country suffers
&gt; little from corruption or organized crime. The
&gt; criminality in prostitution in this country is
&gt; being brought on by organized crime from other
&gt; countries.

4. Uberche points out that one doesn't need to be intimately familiar with The Netherlands to understand how Illegal industries work. Most of the reports on the subject have shown that criminalizing industries does not shut them down or make people safer, it creates opportunities for gangs, mafia and other criminal elements to get in and further destroy the area for profits and often leads to more violence in that industry as well. Prostitution is no different. Yes there are bad elements who will abuse women and force them to become prostitutes. Just like there are bad elements who abuse children and make them make shoes. Does that mean we should shut down the shoe industry? Of course not, you institute laws and restrictions to minimize the bad elements ability to operate.

As for the minimizing of the Red Light District, yes The Netherlands went too far. They went from Legalizing it to promoting it as a tourist attraction. That's pretty fucked up. Uberche is not calling on creating Tourist attractions in China for prostitution, he's calling for legalization and strict controls on it. It's the government's job to control these sorts of things and ensure it's properly done. Much like you don't allow liquor stores beside schools in the USA or you don't like cigarette manufacturers target children in many countries. Uberche is not calling for a complete no hands approach to Prostitution, just legalization and control to make it safer for everyone.

&gt; 5. Uberche claims that people who are opposed to
&gt; prostitution are intolerant and should learn to
&gt; view prostitutes as nice, hardworking girls.
&gt; Nevertheless he concedes that he would probably
&gt; never associate with any of them on a personal,
&gt; intimate basis.

5. Uberche claims that people who are opposed to prostitution stay away from prostitutes and those who want to use them use them. What business of yours is it if someone wants to let someone else use their body for half an hour for money? How is it different from any other work? Your moral objections are things that should tell you how to live your life. Not tell others how to live theirs. If they don't hurt anyone else why do you care? This argument of moral certainty and superiority has been used many times in the past and it rarely turns out well for those the Moral Authority deems to be inferior...
Uberche probably wouldn't be all too eager to date a former prostitute (he might though, would depend on the girl) just like he wouldn't want to date someone who voted for Bush (Jr or Sr)/Harper or someone who worked at Monsanto. Doesn't mean they are bad people, just a different belief system than Uberche's and using your own morality to make decisions about your own life is fine. Uberche actually has many friends in Vancouver who are/were prostitutes as he used to hang out downtown East Hastings, he also has two good friends who work at Monsanto, he considers the Monsanto workers lower than prostitutes when it comes to morality, but it's their choice to decide what their morality consists of so Uberche doesn't push his beliefs on them and the friendship is fine.

&gt; Conclusion:
&gt; 
&gt; The premise in the original post is not only
&gt; bizarre but false.

Conclusion:

Prostitution hurts no one except sometimes those involved, much like drinking alcohol (actually it's much less damaging than Alcohol), Smoking cigarettes (again, must less), eating sugar, drinking coffee and other completely legal activities. 
Legalizing it would allow stricter regulations that could cut down on disease and allow these women a better chance of getting out of that career. It wouldn't change much of anything else because Prostitution in China is already VERY prevalent. I was going to say it would become more obvious but  that's not true, anyone in China who walks down the street and sees the multiple red light &quot;hair cutting salons&quot; filled with young girls in miniskirts lounging on sofas would be pretty hard pressed to see how it could be more obvious.
Prostitution is one of the oldest professions and the sooner we accept it and start to control it the sooner we can take the power out of the hands of criminals.

You'll be happy to know that this is a much nicer version than what I was originally going to post. See you took things I've said and used them out of context or twisted them to make me look bad, I could have done the same but apparently in this case, according to my morals, I have the Moral upper hand. Doesn't make you a bad person, just like Prostitutes aren't bad people, just means you made a bad decision. Luckily your bad decision isn't yet illegal so you're entire life wont be ruined by it like Prostitute's lives are.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90632%23msg-90632</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 00:45:00 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90573%23msg-90573</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Let me recap the thread:

1. Uberche disagrees with China's intent on cracking down on prostitution and takes the bizarre position that it should actually promote pornography and prostitution!

2. Uberche wants to legalize prostitution and cites numerous times The Netherlands as an example of legalized prostitution. A major benefit of legalization, according to him, is that it allows greater medical supervision over prostitutes and reduction of STD

3. OBC correctly pointed out that China is not like The Netherlands. China has a population of 1.2-1.4 billion and, as a developing country, far from perfect health care. The Netherlands is the size of Taiwan, maybe a little bigger, and has a population of 16 million. It has had universal health care since the 1950s that at this point must be one of the best in the world, together with other EU countries. It's paid for by steep income taxes.

4. Tangerine pointed out that Uberche doesn't really know all that much about The Netherlands and suspects that Uberche has never been there. There is a large-scale effort underway to reduce the size of the only significant red-light district in the country, i.e. in Amsterdam. Prostitution has always been tolerated in The Netherlands but didn't become legal until a decade ago. It should be noted that this country suffers little from corruption or organized crime. The criminality in prostitution in this country is being brought on by organized crime from other countries.

5. Uberche claims that people who are opposed to prostitution are intolerant and should learn to view prostitutes as nice, hardworking girls. Nevertheless he concedes that he would probably never associate with any of them on a personal, intimate basis.

Conclusion:

The premise in the original post is not only bizarre but false.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90573%23msg-90573</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 18:16:47 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90480%23msg-90480</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Tangerine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; Unfortunately, prostitution isn't the biggest
&gt; problem in the world right now.

Yeah so nothing will be done. I think a lot of the people who use it probably actually like that it's illegal. Added thrill or some shit probably.

&gt; I don't believe in that kind of &quot;hell.&quot; Hell is
&gt; what we humans create here right on earth.
&gt; Morality is indeed relative but how tolerant are
&gt; you? Let's say you meet this nice woman (for
&gt; simplicity's sake, let's say she's a fellow
&gt; Canadian). You're very attracted to her but after
&gt; a few months she tells you that when she was
&gt; twenty, she was a sex worker for a few years
&gt; because the money was good and the job easier than
&gt; so many minimum wage jobs. You wouldn't see her in
&gt; a different light? Or would you compliment her on
&gt; having been so clever? 

I said live and let live, not take part in :) I don't like or would ever use prostitutes, but I respect their right to do whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone by doing it. Illegal prostitution does hurt people, legalizing and strictly controlling it would make that less so I suppose legalizing it. If my girlfriend if a few months told me that... I honestly don't know what I'd do... would depend on how strong my feelings were and such but yeah definitely would turn on a new red light to view her in.

&gt; ROTFL. I was goading you and expected this kind of
&gt; response. I've read those studies as well that
&gt; shows women who enjoy the same economic
&gt; independence as men also cheat at the same rate.
&gt; Or was it actually a higher rate?

Thank Christ... Was surprised you'd put such an easily refutable thing here... I've heard it a lot from people and it always pisses me off. Men and women are equally fucked up. Almost kinda nice to know that actually..]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90480%23msg-90480</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:37:48 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90395%23msg-90395</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
[quote] If everywhere made it legal it would be less likely to be so bad because you wouldn't have one place where everyone goes on holidays to have sex with prostitutes meaning those bad elements wouldn't have so much power over it because it would be spread out more. [/quote]

Unfortunately, prostitution isn't the biggest problem in the world right now.

[quote] Morality is all relative. I'm sure there are people who would say you are a sinner and going to hell. I'm a live and let live type of person.[/quote]

I don't believe in that kind of &quot;hell.&quot; Hell is what we humans create here right on earth. Morality is indeed relative but how tolerant are you? Let's say you meet this nice woman (for simplicity's sake, let's say she's a fellow Canadian). You're very attracted to her but after a few months she tells you that when she was twenty, she was a sex worker for a few years because the money was good and the job easier than so many minimum wage jobs. You wouldn't see her in a different light? Or would you compliment her on having been so clever? 

[quote] Oh come off it. Almost all studies done have shown that women cheat just as often as men do.... it's not a problem with men, it's a problem with humans. THIS is why people get so sick and tired of listening to self proclaimed &quot;Feminists&quot;, I put
it in quotes because this isn't feminism, this is some issue you have with men. What's wrong with men? We're horny and stupid, same thing that's wrong with women. [/quote]

ROTFL. I was goading you and expected this kind of response. I've read those studies as well that shows women who enjoy the same economic independence as men also cheat at the same rate. Or was it actually a higher rate?]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90395%23msg-90395</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:32:56 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90385%23msg-90385</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[quote]You can create a fairly decent society for your citizens but then there are external forces that smell an opportunity and ruin things, such as the Russian Mafia or illegals from Africa or Suriname (a former colony of The Netherlands).[/quote]

Yes but keeping it illegal just makes things worse. If The Netherlands hadn't made it legal it's not like those bad people would just disappear, they were going somewhere with their trade no matter what. If everywhere made it legal it would be less likely to be so bad because you wouldn't have one place where everyone goes on holidays to have sex with prostitutes meaning those bad elements wouldn't have so much power over it because it would be spread out more. 

No matter what you'll always have bad elements in all sectors. Doesn't mean you should punish those who want to do it legally. After Enron people didn't insist all power companies should be shut down and made illegal and that one action severely hurt millions, cost California massive amounts of money and cost the leader of that state his job.

[quote]My morality is such that i could never view prostitutes as &quot;decent, hardworking girls.&quot; [/quote]

Morality is all relative. I'm sure there are people who would say you are a sinner and going to hell. I'm a live and let live type of person.

[quote]What the hell is wrong with men???[/quote]

Oh come off it. Almost all studies done have shown that women cheat just as often as men do.... it's not a problem with men, it's a problem with humans. THIS is why people get so sick and tired of listening to self proclaimed &quot;Feminists&quot;, I put it in quotes because this isn't feminism, this is some issue you have with men. What's wrong with men? We're horny and stupid, same thing that's wrong with women.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90385%23msg-90385</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:54:30 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90350%23msg-90350</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche, what i was trying to say was that no matter what your views on prostitution, it's difficult to find a good solution. The Netherlands is a caring, tolerant society and by legalizing prostitution and cannabis (the latter only under restricted conditions), you have actually made the problem worse. That's the problem in today's global world. You can create a fairly decent society for your citizens but then there are external forces that smell an opportunity and ruin things, such as the Russian Mafia or illegals from Africa or Suriname (a former colony of The Netherlands). 

My morality is such that i could never view prostitutes as &quot;decent, hardworking girls.&quot;

The problem isn't with prostitution; the problem lies with MEN! I'll cite two examples that infuriated me last year. The first one was Spitzer. I'll never forget the sadness and pain of his wife standing next to him when he did the usual politician's &quot;I'm so sorry&quot; bit but ONLY once discovered up to his elbow in the cookie jar. She's attractive(much more so than he), well educated, gave up her career for his benefit and seemed a great partner in life. Yet, he cheated on her with a vulgar little trollop who prefers the easy way to make money. New York also lost a great governor in the process just at the time when it needed one (Spitzer was fighting the excesses of Wall Street). The other one was Edwards whom i've never trusted. Again, an attractive, well-educated wife but this one also was in remission from cancer. All morality was tossed aside for the sake of a downright ugly goofball. What the hell is wrong with men???]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90350%23msg-90350</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:42:33 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90309%23msg-90309</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[In fact Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada held that dubious title a number of years ago because of the large amount of impoverished Native reserves surrounding it. Was bad... Getting better now though thankfully (though still not good)]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90309%23msg-90309</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:31:55 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90292%23msg-90292</link>
      <author>Overseas.Born.Chinese</author>
      <description><![CDATA[demoore,

I am not sure your contentions that China has the largest ratio of prostitute per capita on this planet as well as for your reasons why very few foreigners solicit prostitutes are correct.  If you base your positions on published research, then fine.

However, if not, such assessments are very racist and leads any Chinese reading your post to believe you are another person, who shares a Neo-Imperialist mindset in the belief that all Asian women habor a innate desire to be with foreign men.


OBC]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90292%23msg-90292</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:29:17 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90267%23msg-90267</link>
      <author>demoore</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[quote]Overseas.Born.Chinese: Your encouraging of prostitution in China is immoral and utterly disgusting. Moreover, your belief in prostitution only further proves your Western Imperialist mindset in that you innately believe that Chinese women are at all times subject to be exploited by and/or prostitution.[/quote]
China as probably the highest ratio prostitution/population on earth. Every hotel has its &quot;sauna/massage&quot; place full of prostitutes; KTV are full of hostess you can 非礼 for 100Y and bring back home for more. You also have &quot;prostitute's streets&quot; in every Chinese city, most of the time outside the city-center.

It's incredible the number of prostitutes there. And has nothing to do with imperialism or Uberche encouraging it...

In the same time very few foreigners go to prostitutes in China for different reasons:
- Prostitution is a taboo for foreigners (you hide it, and won't go there with friends or business partner like in China);
- Prostitution in China is not visible (like in Thailand), except girls calling in your hotel room at night, not accessible to tourists;
- Chinese girls (non-prostitutes) like Foreigners.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90267%23msg-90267</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:49:28 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90256%23msg-90256</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[quote]Just because prostitution is legal in The Netherlands, it's a haven for the mafia for human trafficking and money-laundering. [/quote]

Blaming that on the legalization is a bit strange as that's true of most prostitutes though. The reason it happens so much in The Netherlands is that it's very well known as a place for prostitution (and drugs) so criminals want to bring their wares there. All legalizing does is allow it to be regulated and cleaned up but only if the politicians in power have the spine and aren't too corrupt to do so. 

[quote]One could conclude therefore that legalized prostitution is akin to slavery.[/quote]

No because what you are talking about is the illegal prostitutes. As you said yourself those women are in The Netherlands (yeah, sorry about the name haha) illegally. This isn't a problem with legalized prostitution it's a problem with corruption and hypocrisy of the politicians. If they were strict with their laws and went in and cleaned out the criminals you could have a clean, safe working environment with girls who chose to be there. The problem would be the profits would go down (which I'm guessing is probably the problem in The Netherlands) and It would be harder to find the prostitutes, but as it becomes harder to find the wages go up and it's better for the girls anyway.

Everyone views prostitutes in a bad light anyway so no one bothers to ensure the politicians are strict with who can and can't be in the Windows of the Red Light District. It's like in Vancouver Canada a while ago there was a Serial Killer who was targeting prostitutes, went on for a LONG time because the Police just didn't care and the populace didn't care either as the victims were all just prostitutes. It was only solved when the media finally started reporting on it and everyone felt too guilty to keep ignoring it any longer. It's people's own attitude towards these workers that create the atmosphere that allows these illegal actions to happen. If people viewed them as decent hard working girls who either had some bad luck in life or are simply ok with the moral questions involved and like the money then and only then would we be able to actually see how well that industry COULD work if we let it. 

It's absolutely sick that so many of those in power go to prostitutes (There have been a number of cases of Madams who get caught and release their books of customers and it's almost always filled with Rich and powerful people) and yet these same people have the audacity and ignorance to keep this industry illegal forcing the women to become black market slaves with no way out of their life because of the criminal element that controls them. The world is a truly messed up place...]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90256%23msg-90256</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:21:26 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90243%23msg-90243</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Willp, welcome to this forum and thank you for reminding me of this thread. The Violence in Xinjiang thread was getting very old, the more so since the violence in that &quot;Autonomous Region&quot; has abated but is still galloping at a high pace in the thread itself :)

As a woman, I have, of course, no positive feelings about prostitution. There are two things one can do about it: try to eradicate (good luck!) or legalize it. To do nothing is merely an opportunity for cops, bureaucrats and politicians to fill their coffers. Now, if you want to eradicate it, how do you propose to go about it? It's relatively easy to put prostitution at the lower end of the pay-scale out of business, i.e. the street walkers and the ones who sit at windows. But i don't see what you can do to rid society of the escorts, call-girls and other fancy names these ladies go by. They will merely re-package themselves as models, business-women, entertainment consultants, and other creative titles. So, by trying to eradicate prostitution you'll hurt the little men but continue giving the wealthy and powerful, the Berlusconis of this world, their immoral pleasures. 

From whatever statistics i have seen, a relatively small percentage of men use prostitution. It's around 10%. What sort of men does this percentage consist of? Men who work on ships and are away from home for extended periods of time, men who want kinky sex and who would be too embarrassed to ask such things from a girlfriend, men who have issues that preclude them from forming relationships with women,  men who might otherwise resort to rape (although i readily admit that rape is not about sex but about power and hatred for women), men who want to cheat on their wives and prefer the anonymity of prostitution over the complications of an affair. Let's just say that most of these men are just sleazeballs. The window prostitutes in Amsterdam average 30-35 customers per night. Most men prefer a bit more exclusivity and more of an emotional component to this leisure activity, even if were legal.  

In a number of posts Holland has been brought up as an example of legalized prostitution. Btw, just so you know, the only correct name of the country is The Netherlands. Someone here seemed to believe that red-light districts are everywhere in The Netherlands. That's not the case. The biggest one is in Amsterdam, called De Walletjes, where it's also a tourist attraction for tourists just wanting to walk through the area (i've done so myself numerous times because it used to be a fun spectacle to behold). Rotterdam, the biggest port in the world until Shanghai overtook it a few years ago :(, has a small and very sleazy district. It is used primarily by sailors. A few other big cities may have a tiny, tiny district but that's about it. Outside Amsterdam, the brothel business is negligible or non-existent.

Now for the very bad news:

In recent years Amsterdam has closed down one third of its district and plans to reduce it to half of its former size. The reason is increased criminality, most likely by the Russian mafia. In The Netherlands 80% of the prostitutes are foreigners and 70% of them are in the country illegally. Many of these women have been trafficked, mostly from the former Soviet bloc. Other women, mainly from Central America, were lured to Europe under the false pretense that they would work in restaurants. Many of these women never dare to leave their room and are scuttled from one EU country to another about every 3 months. Just because prostitution is legal in The Netherlands, it's a haven for the mafia for human trafficking and money-laundering. 

One could conclude therefore that legalized prostitution is akin to slavery.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90243%23msg-90243</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:18:22 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90190%23msg-90190</link>
      <author>Overseas.Born.Chinese</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Willp,

You ask,
&quot;And lastly, with respect OverseasBornChinese, may I ask, are you in the employ of a Chinese government department? Your arguments sound so familiar...&quot;

No, I am not.  As my user name says, I am an overseas born Chinese.

As for your recent post, I am not at all surprised at your findings.  Moroever, your findings just prove my basic understanding of this issue.

In essence, any legalization of prostitution will dramtically increase the already huge sex industry in China confirmed in your first point and work to erode the current level of morality associated with its institution, thereby making it much more acceptable in the eyes of Chinese people possbibly in the very next or few generations as alluded in your third point.

This social/economic outcome is not in the interest of any modern society and only satisfies the greedy Chinese people who use sex to get business and the perverted sex tourists seeking Chinese girls, guys, hybrids, and etc. as inferred by your second point.


OBC]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90190%23msg-90190</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:18:15 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90174%23msg-90174</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Willp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; And lastly, with respect OverseasBornChinese, may
&gt; I ask, are you in the employ of a Chinese
&gt; government department? Your arguments sound so
&gt; familiar...

No he's an Asian American and lives in the USA... which is how he knows so intimately what the Chinese people think and feel...]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90174%23msg-90174</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 09:33:06 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90148%23msg-90148</link>
      <author>Willp</author>
      <description><![CDATA[WHAT? No debate on this topic since July 8? 
Anyway, here are a few thoughts.
I've lived in China for nearly 4 years, not long I know, but as a keen student of the social sciences and after numerous discussions with Chinese friends and colleagues both male and female, I've become certain of these things - 
1. prostitution is a HUGE industry in China. I'm happy to give my reasons for 
   this conclusion but for the sake of brevity in this forum will not  
   elaborate here.
2. prostitution in China is in varying degrees and in different places  
   controlled, condoned, or financially managed by &quot;government men&quot; i.e. 
   police and local government officials, or business men with lots of guanxi 
   with the government men. I'm NOT saying that it is in any way officially 
   sanctioned.
3. as with a few other issues in China prostitution may not be the most 
   socially desirable industry but a very large number of people are  
   obviously prepared to look the other way (given point 1 above). There is a 
   range of complex social issues behind this. Again brevity.... I'm happy to 
   discuss my findings should it be requested.

And lastly, with respect OverseasBornChinese, may I ask, are you in the employ of a Chinese government department? Your arguments sound so familiar...]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C90148%23msg-90148</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 05:23:58 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87379%23msg-87379</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[[quote]If you are referring to the wide practice of prostitution being commonly accepted in China, you are very much mistaken. Prostitution has always been practiced in China, but it has never been a culturally accepted practice, as you seem to subversively indicate.[/quote]

You have no idea, you aren't Chinese, you don't live in China. Go back to your decadent Western lifestyle and stop trying to force your wasteful, hateful ways on the good people of China.

[quote]Moreover, as I said in my previous post, if prostitution does becomes legalized, then we will see more Chinese men in future generations have no inhibitions of using prostitutes, which would lead to higher social costs as well as be a detriment to the national morality of China. [/quote]

I know lots of people from Amsterdam in China and almost none of them go to Prostitutes, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's good and accepted. The only person I've EVER heard say they have no ability to stop themselves from using prostitutes if they were legal is you.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87379%23msg-87379</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:09:12 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87334%23msg-87334</link>
      <author>Overseas.Born.Chinese</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche,

You conclude,
&quot;...I am currently living in a country where Prostitution is commonly accepted as something guys do and there are plenty of Chinese men who don't use them, not because it's illegal, but because they don't want to.&quot;

If you are referring to the wide practice of prostitution being commonly accepted in China, you are very much mistaken.  Prostitution has always been practiced in China, but it has never been a culturally accepted practice, as you seem to subversively indicate.  Moreover, as I said in my previous post, if prostitution does becomes legalized, then we will see more Chinese men in future generations have no inhibitions of using prostitutes, which would lead to higher social costs as well as be a detriment to the national morality of China.


OBC]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87334%23msg-87334</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:40:10 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87161%23msg-87161</link>
      <author>Uberche</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Overseas.Born.Chinese Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; It would be a sad day for China if this were true;
&gt; however, thank the heavens it is not.

Which you know from your vast experience [s]being born in[/s] I mean [s]living[/s]... wait.. I mean briefly traveling to and then going back to the Evil USA...

&gt; This statement is so wrong, that is does not
&gt; deserve an intelligent response.

On the point in that particular part of the discussion it didn't. Obviously over all culture and such makes a lot of difference on this issue.

&gt; If it was legal and had become culturally
&gt; accepted, I do not see why I and many other
&gt; Chinese men would not go, if we had the money to
&gt; pay for it.  Sex is sex...

Sex is sex... wow... and you claim I'M the one with issues... 

&gt; So what your point?  If anything, you just
&gt; provided additional reason for young aspiring
&gt; Chinese to avoid coming to the US to search for
&gt; better prospects elsewhere.

yeah, and if you had showed my whole response you would have seen I also said the problem is the same in China which invalidates what you just said...

&gt; 1.  Legalizing prostitution will increase STD
&gt; rates in countries not fitted with adequate
&gt; healthcare and money to fund safe sex education
&gt; and prevention.  Today's China falls into this
&gt; category.

Money comes FROM prostitution, they can buy their own condoms and healthcare not to even get into the HUGE amounts of taxation they could put on the Sex Industry that would help finance creating a more prosperous future for the country. The government just needs to institute mandatory testing and the automatic loss of jobs for those who have disease. Yeah I know there will be some businesses who don't do it but it's already that way so what's the difference? Only that those who want to work legally and help their country have that option. I already addressed this and stated so in my question...
 
&gt; 2.  Legalizing prostitution will increase the
&gt; social problems mentioned in my answer to your
&gt; first question and pave way to more moral
&gt; decadence in Chinese society.

A guy who says he'd be happy to frequent a prostitute if it was legal is going to complain about Moral Decadence... I'm sorry you apparently have no way of controlling your sexual desires but I am currently living in a country where Prostitution is commonly accepted as something guys do and there are plenty of Chinese men who don't use them, not because it's illegal, but because they don't want to.]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87161%23msg-87161</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:03:33 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87149%23msg-87149</link>
      <author>Tangerine</author>
      <description><![CDATA[OBC wrote:

[quote]If it was legal and had become culturally accepted, I do not see why I and many other Chinese men would not go, if we had the money to pay for it. Sex is sex... [/quote]

I can't give any links but i read somewhere that in the US the percentage of men frequenting prostitutes is quite small; below 10%. It's probably higher in China.

To say that &quot;sex is sex&quot; is a very sad statement. The sex you must be referring to is like an empty experience with a stranger (be it a prostitute or someone picked up in a bar for a one-night stand). Sex as part of love is beautiful (and i'm not referring to the immature love as habitually described in the glossy magazines).]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87149%23msg-87149</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:17:12 -0400</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>Re: China launches anti-prostitution drive</title>
      <link>http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87115%23msg-87115</link>
      <author>Overseas.Born.Chinese</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Uberche,

You claim,
&quot;I disagree, I'd bet if you explained the situation to people a lot of people (rising STDs and destruction of these women's lives, whose lives were already bad, through legal prosecution), especially in China where Christianity wouldn't be an issue, would agree prostitution should be legalized.&quot;

It would be a sad day for China if this were true; however, thank the heavens it is not.

You believe,
&quot;Culture, level of Industrialization and Political Structure holds no bearing on this point.&quot;

This statement is so wrong, that is does not deserve an intelligent response.

You ask,
&quot;Are you honestly saying that if Prostitution in your town was legalized tomorrow you'd start going?&quot;

If it was legal and had become culturally accepted, I do not see why I and many other Chinese men would not go, if we had the money to pay for it.  Sex is sex...

You share,
&quot;The USA's money is collapsing but most people still have food and farms aren't going to bankrupt forcing the huge influx of migrant workers to other places which in turn dropped salaries of workers.&quot;

So what your point?  If anything, you just provided additional reason for young aspiring Chinese to avoid coming to the US to search for better prospects elsewhere.

Answers to your set questions:

1.  Legalizing prostitution will increase STD rates in countries not fitted with adequate healthcare and money to fund safe sex education and prevention.  Today's China falls into this category.

2.  Legalizing prostitution will increase the social problems mentioned in my answer to your first question and pave way to more moral decadence in Chinese society.


OBC]]></description>
      <category>China News</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.chinese-tools.com/forum/read.html?q=16%2C86051%2C87115%23msg-87115</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:12:59 -0400</pubDate>
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