I don't like my friend to be called "laowai" but agree that it's not a pejorative phrase. To be honest, even though it's not a pejorative term, it sounds pretty annoying sometimes by the people who say it in a strange tone especially when they see a foreign guy with a Chinese girl together. They will say" Hey, Look! That girl is with a "Laowai" I hate to be made gestures upon those! People have right to have a foreign bf or gf. To this point, Most Chinese people are not open-minded enough. Thet are unconscious racists which they never admit~By the way, i'm a Chinese, i don't mean to throw stones at my own people but it's the truth! Think about it.

Don't you think it is the result of country's politics? In Russia there are the same things 'cause there were the times of the same ideology.

they r curious only! they r admiring u. nothing else.
u think too much about yr own feeling.
change yr position.

"You" means Russia?But modern Russia does not mean me or the most part of people.Especially young people which say now: I love my country but I hate my state. And there is no way to change the position in Russia,because there is ruling elite in the country which made the ideology's vacuum.This what I meant about ideology and its resualts.

Hi Tatiana,

I think "you" refers to Laeticia and her comments.

Can you have a thread titled "Russia" on the "Language and Cultural Exchange" forum and be a voice representing your country? I would like to know more so I have an idea what is going on in Russia when I watch the news or read what is online.

Elections are coming soon to Russia. Are the young people hopeful of a change or will it be the same old story where only the powerful and rich control the wealth and the country? Who are the young people hoping to elect this time to make a better change for the future?

Oh,yeah...I'm sorry I didn't notice the nickname.I can tell you nothing interesting about elections.Everything is understanding now.It'll be only change of the faces.There is no alternative party in here so having some hopes is useless.You've got it right about "the same old story", maybe 'cause you remember how it was in 70s-80s

I once had a Chinese guy spitting at me cos i walked (nothing more!!) with a Chinese woman. I think sometimes Chinese men can be jealous somehow, thinking that the grass is always greener elsewhere... but of cos they don t realize that for most "laowai" life in mainland can be quite tough at times. And that "laowai" are not super human beings. We are just like any other person on this planet.

我觉得这个话题有意思，想多多了解。 可以帮我吗？

中文怎么说这几个词： racism, racist, "unconscious" racist, 等等。 有没有好玩的俚语叫一个＂racist person＂呢？

i'm a chinese. i don't think you guys being called "laowai老外" is a racist word in general.
"lao" is a word used for being nice. for example, "lao gong老公" means husband, "lao po老婆" means wife. for another example, if a person's last name is "wang 王", his close friends tend to call him "lao wang 老王"－－showing that they are close to each other.

to be honest, i don't think chinese are racist, but on the contrary, some are looking too high of westerns and look down themselves.

but you might find a lot chinese people pointing at you and talk abt you by ears, which might seems a bit rude but they are curious not racist.

on the other hand, i live in Uk right now, i find people here are racist.

mention abt "unconscious racist"--i think some people might do against blc or indian(not me). i think it is like french people they are arrogent but they themselves don't think so.

--excuse me if i'm a bit too straight forward or too honest to hurt some people. just telling what i think

Sometimes, they just show dislike to foreigners. Maybe you don’t know that foreigner has some bad reputations in China.
For example, If you carefully pay attention to Foreign-Chinese couples, you will find 99 percent of them are “the foreigner guy with a Chinese girl” couples, as you said, only 1 percent of them are “the Chinese guy and foreigner girl” couples. Chinese knows many so-called honest gentlemen are cheating Chinese girls. They just want to make love with Chinese girls instead of really in love with them. In China, it is regarded as immorality if one just has only sex-relationship without love with opposite sex. Due to this bad reputation, Many Chinese does not like foreigners and makes gestures.
From this point, this is problem of “Laowai” while not Chinese.

Jim, thank you, your answer is a good demonstration of how the Chinese think about foreigners.

Quote:
Maybe you don't know that foreigner has some bad reputations in China. For example.

Starts good. You'll gonna explain that if indeed foreigners have bad reputation this is because they are bad...

Quote:
99 percent of them are "the Foreign guy with a Chinese girl". Chinese knows many so-called honest gentlemen are cheating Chinese girls. They just want to make love with Chinese girls instead of really in love with them.

The 99% percent is true, Chinese girl really like foreigners, and you're probalbly right, for lots of couple it's only to have fun. But both of them are here to have fun, as it's often the girls who do the first move.
I don't think Chinese girl are as stupid as you say, being so easily fooled and re-fooled by guys.

Quote:
In China, it is regarded as immorality if one just has only sex-relationship without love with opposite sex.

Haha!
Two options: you are from the countryside and have never been to a big China city, or you are a big liar not afraid of losing face.

Quote:
From this point, this is problem of “Laowai” while not Chinese.

And with this last sentence you acknowledge "laowai" is a pejorative term, but that foreigners deserve because it of they behave bad.

Nothing more to say...

to Jim: i don't think it was because chinese guys are not reliable.
i've been through 2 long-term relationship with chinese guys. first one 5 yrs, second one 2 yrs. they are both great bfs.
now i'm with british guy.
i wanna say, chinese guys are definitly dedecating a lot more into the relationship than british guys.
i'm not saying my british bf is not good. he is grt. but it is the culture difference.
chinese are more caring and generous. western are more independent and seperate things to clearly.

after chinese people got married, due to our morale value and family pressure and social pressure, a lot people choose not to divorce without loving their wifes.
in china, people think that is the way a man called "reliable". because mostly if divorced the woman will be volnerable.
but in western culture, this is not honest. that is ur value.

and at the same time, chinese women in the new generation are becoming more and more independent. and we have more choices now than just rely on husband like old time relationship of a marriage.

another thing: i think chinese girls like westerns. chinese guys do like westerners as well but i guess western girls tend not to choose chinese for some other reason than that they don't chinese guys are not reliable. don't know what it is.

Hi demoore, I don't know you nationality, I guess you are Chinese,but i know you don't understand Chinese cluture,especially when you mentioned "Haha! Two options: you are from the countryside and have never been to a big China city, or you are a big liar not afraid of losin face.", Yes, some girls are open-minded, and they want to have sex with guys they like, however, in fact, most of them come from low social class. In China, Tranditional Chinese culute especially moral is kept by high class. Just as high-class Amercian dnt think "Friends",one of USA popular soap-operas,can reflect real American philosophy.

Hi rose C, you are right, Many Chinese girls like western guys because some of them like a much-money-lifestyle. Due to nearly 300yrs of humiliating history, China became very poor.though reforming about 30yrs, China is still a developing not developped country. In China many people think all foreigners are rich-man. as this background is concerned, we can easily find out why many girls like foreigners. Of course, i admire just only few girls fall in love with foreigners only for love.

I dont want to hide something as Demoore supposed. I just want foreigners know more about Chinese Cluture and the real resons of some social phenomenon. Because some western media just judge Chinese from their value.

Jim:
i totally agree with what you said.
i think a lot westerners in china don't respect chinese people at all.

i met a british guy who works in china (for 1and a half yrs). he doesn't respect chinese at all. he is with a chinese girl. he shouted at me abt chinese government. called chinese people are thieves( he said that chinese government are currupted so we are called thieves). etc.

he was so terrible and i called the police who took him away from me. ten minutes later he came back to make me trouble.

i just feel totally sorry for his chinese gf

I believe that racism is ugly and that it makes you ugly. But we all got to talk about it and get it out and get to know the other side as a start. Then it is not so much a big deal anymore.

The idea of “unconscious” racist was quite interesting and I have never heard of this use before. And by that I think the meaning as one “not being aware of,” which I understand, but I am not sure because it was not defined. Anyway, I looked up the word racist / racism online and in my dictionary and got more than one definition. I certainly did not get a definition for “unconscious” racist.

So I wanted to know what you native speakers use when discussing this topic. What is the common usage for “racism” and “racist”? And what exactly do you mean by “unconscious” racist?

The main reason I come to this forum is to learn Chinese and try to use Chinese and get to understand Chinese people. I know my Chinese sucks, but I want to improve. I know some topics are sensitive, but if there is something I want to know then I must ask. Once I know what characters are used then I can always go on my own.

That is why I like it when native speakers use Chinese and talk about different and interesting topics, but all I ever see here is English! This site has become too much of an English site, yet the highest percentage of members is from China and the site is called “China Club”. The English language is definitely one area where China imports more than exports of the Chinese language.

I hope there can be a better balance so more people benefit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2007 09:26PM by ez.

Hi EZ, Laeticia definitely wanted to expresee "not being aware of" with "unconscious ".
congratulation! U find the problem of this forum. This is Chinese club, but most members including me use english.
this is A forum where all of us want to learn from each other. chinese want to learn english and others want to learn chinese. i dont think you can understand it if all message is in chinese.SO, I suggest, chinese should use english followed chinese and others use chinese followed english.

Great idea Jim! I agree with you. I may use bilingual messages from now on and hope you do so too!

Jim 你说得很好! 我同意你的观点.从今往后我会用双语(中英)来发帖,希望大家都行动起来!

To ez: Initially, I was just a little bit upset about this situation in China. I indeed see many Chinese people who hold strong bias to certain class of people no matter where they are from. I call these Chinese racists, however they never admit it! So i've been thinking what kind of usage should i use for these kind of people? Unconcious came up to my mind immediately. ez i was wondering if you have better idea about calling this?

As for some sensitive issues and topics i think we just need to hold a positive and fair attitude. It'll be okay to talk about. We have rights to talk right?

给 ez: 最初我是因为对中国现存的这种"无意识的种族歧视"的状况很气愤所以才发此贴. 我的的确确见到很多国人就是有这种意识,他们的偏见来自对不同阶层和地域的人. 只是他们从来都不承认自己是种族歧视者! 因此我一直都在想究竟应该怎样称呼这样一群人呢? "无意识种族歧视"一下子就闪现在脑海里了. ez你是否有更好的说法,讲来听听?

对于一些敏感话题,我相信只要我们自己持有一种公正的观点相信讨论不会是问题, 我们每个人都有言论自由,不是吗?

To Rose C: I've been reading your messages for quite some days and found out you are a very smart, knowlegable person. However, I see you are tending to be angry when you are talking about foreigners now. I understand that you mignt be suffering some loss or bad luck or whatever made you unhappy and upset but your tone of talking foreigners are kind of unfair. I have many foreign friend myself here in China and they are mostly very friendly and nice, they don't say bad words of Chinese government but stating their own opinion. I believe as a man we all have this right? If we really have to say that some foreigners are bad behaved and did bad things to his girlfriends. We do have them in China as well! Didn't you ever heard of a Chinese guy mistreating his gf or wife?

给 Rose C: 我最近一直很关注你的帖子,发现你是一个很聪明,有学识的人.然而,当你谈到外国人的时候你的语气好像越来越气愤. 我理解你肯定经历了一些不愉快, 但是这样一棍子打死所有的外国人未免有失公平. 我自己就有很多外国朋友,他们大多数都很友善,他们也不会去骂政府, 只是很直率地说明自己的观点.我相信人人都有这个权利吧? 如果我们非要说外国人很坏,对女朋友不好,那请问你难道从没有听说过一个中国男朋友对他的女朋友或老婆施威吗?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2007 05:36AM by Laeticia.

Laeticia..观点不同。你在中国，观点是大部份的种族。 rose_C 现在在英国体验少数的种族，看法一定会变化。

"i was wondering if you have better idea about calling this?"

“Unconscious” has medical and psychological meanings, so I would not use that. Just say they are “not aware of” or that they “will not admit to” being racist, then it is clear. Perhaps you can say that one is "not openly" racist, in the sense that they are hiding the fact.

ez Wrote:

> “Unconscious” has medical and psychological
> meanings, so I would not use that. Just say they
> are “not aware of” or that they “will not
> admit to” being racist, then it is clear.
> Perhaps you can say that one is "not openly"
> racist, in the sense that they are hiding the
> fact.
Thanks, ez, I'd like to use "Unconscious"to experss"not aware of"if you did not explain it here. after your explaination, now i aware of （not conscious, haha）my misunderstanding about "Unconscious".
非常感谢EZ，如果你没有解释"Unconscious"的话，我可能也会误用。但现在我明白了。
-------------------------------------------------------
> Laeticia..观点不同。
>
I am astonished at you Chinese level. you are great.
But, i want to correct you misuse.
i cant understand you meaning of "观点是大部份的种族。 rose_C 现在在英国体验少数的种族，"
Maybe you want to say "你在中国，是以多数族群的地位得到的观点，而Rose-c在英国，体验到少数族群的地位，所以观点发生了变化。”

In chinese, “种族”is vrey formal expression on nationality or "Race" and it sometimes can be replaced by "人种". you can express "majority" with"多数族群" and "minority" with "少数族群"&"少数民族".

Laeticia and Jim : "now i aware of （not conscious, haha)"

Jim, you reminded me that there was something I wanted to add when I was writing the explanation, but I had a headache and I wanted to give a quick answer to Laeticia's "unconscious" question.

"Conscious of" does have the meaning "aware of" and "not conscious of" meaning "not aware of" or "unaware of". So a basic sentence structure might appear like this: "She was conscious of her actions." or "He was not conscious of what he did." You might also hear, "...conscious of the fact (that)..." and "not conscious of the fact (that)...." For example, "When the bullies called the foreigner 老外, he was conscious of the fact that they were using it as a derogatory term." or "When I translated 'China is the future of the world', I was not conscious of the fact that I would offend all the Chinese in China!"

We also say "consciously" or "unconsciously" doing something, for example, "When Jim speaks publicly, he unconsciously shakes his leg." (because he is nervous)

Personally, I do not use "unconscious" very often to mean "unaware of", but use it all the time if someone got hit on the head and was not awake.(the medical / psychological use)
---------------------------
"I am astonished at you Chinese level. you are great."

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words, but I know my Chinese sucks big time (slang meaning: "is very, very poor").

And thank you for your correction. I knew there were errors. I will have some time tomorrow to look at it.
---------------------------

"In chinese, “种族”is vrey formal expression on nationality or "Race" and it sometimes can be replaced by "人种". you can express "majority" with"多数族群" and "minority" with "少数族群"&"少数民族"."

And Jim, a big THANK YOU for this. Like I said, I wanted to know which was the common usage. I asked for this information twice here and was waiting patiently! I just got to the point where I got tired of asking again.

Hey guys wats up?hope you are all fine,I just want people to learn a bit of English here concerning the word "unconcious",well,when you look at the prefix "un" it is used with many adjectives,adverbs,and verbs to give the opposite meaning.for instance"unable means not able",'unhappy means not happy","uncooked means not cooked","unconcious means not concious",etc.
Now when you come to the actual word"unconcious"its just the opposite of concious isn't it?which means;
1:for example an unconcious feeling or thought is one that you do not realise you have:an unconcious fear of change,the child's unconcious desire to learn.
2:used about things you do without realising you are doin them or without intending to do them,example,she has the unconcious habit of biting herfingernails,an unconcious gesture of selfprotection,another one like,to be unconcious of something is not to realise something;she seemed unconcious of the embarrrassment she had caused.really it just depends on the context,I still feel Laeticia is very right.I hope you have benefited from this thread and thanx so much for taking time to read.

Well, for me its quite simple,
Chinese people are too proud and they think everything in their country are the best.. Im a chinese and i was born in belgium, i go to chinese school on Sunday.. My parents always say there is nothing to eat in belgium,Only Belgian can eat that, that's why they are so fat,and so on.
My Chinese teachers are the same, and my friends too, ..In my opinion the chinese culture is very different from the others, and we are used to be educated like this, at school or at home, there are the words " China is the best".. Right ?

i think a lot westerners in china don't respect chinese people at all.

i met a british guy who works in china (for 1and a half yrs). he doesn't respect chinese at all. he is with a chinese girl. he shouted at me abt chinese government. called chinese people are thieves( he said that chinese government are currupted so we are called thieves). etc.
===========================================================================
Calm down,rose C!
there are rough guys anywhere on the plante , you shouldn't take it too generalised.

MeiMei797 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, for me its quite simple,
> Chinese people are too proud and they think
> everything in their country are the best.. Im a
> chinese and i was born in belgium, i go to chinese
> school on Sunday.. My parents always say there is
> nothing to eat in belgium,Only Belgian can eat
> that, that's why they are so fat,and so on.
> My Chinese teachers are the same, and my friends
> too, ..In my opinion the chinese culture is very
> different from the others, and we are used to be
> educated like this, at school or at home, there
> are the words " China is the best".. Right ?

除了吃的以外，中国人很少对其他的中国商品感到自豪。
中国人很喜欢外国货的。

Hi guys.let's not hide the meaning of lao wai from people,let's all be onest,Lao Wai means OLD DEVIL.I hope you get the pointright.

Quote:
Chinese Hero: let's not hide the meaning of lao wai, Lao Wai means "Old Devil".

The is no idea of devil is 老外 (laowai) !
The subject has been discussed here: English equivalent for 老外 - laowai?.

"Unconscious" and "It sounds annoying..." only means possible, maybe. How much possibility can it be? Even Laeticia is not sure about it. It's just a kind of feeling. The people in the world are divided into different levels. It can't be denied the uncultivated exists in every country. We can never judge a nation only from a few words or some unformal phenomenon from the minority. Just as the Chinese saying says: 物以类聚，人以群分!

everybody is an unconscious racist, including you and me who reads this thread.

How could someone say the title"laowai" is not pleasant to one's ears?
It's just a way for most Chinese to call the foreigners in China. Just a casual thing. Of course it's not pejorative word, unless you yourself think it is.
There are some others say everybody is subconsciously racist,yes, that's right, then what ? Chinese people would of course subconsciously love China,love Chinese people more than any else. But,there's nothing wrong with that. Every human being loves his own race his own country subconsciously or publicly,that's acceptable to all beings.